Author Topic: Sunday testing release notes.  (Read 57880 times)

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2016, 03:21:08 pm »
On that I agree. Spire has needed the correct buffs for ages to be viable on it's own, and I've given up on that front. They can't agree on how to do it, and at this point they'll never listen to us or figure it out on their own. And yes, they are also terrible at figuring out heavy guns, which is evident by the sheer lack of them (even new guns in Alliance).

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2016, 03:23:45 pm »
Hwatchas, however, traditionally use burst fire. They do not use marking shots. They are the ultimate in spray-and-pray. If there's any weapon that lore-wise, it makes sense to burst fire, it would be the hwatcha.



I'll agree with you there, if by lore you meant historically, because there is no lore on it. The Chinese "Nest of Bees" was spray and pray. However, this is a game in which heavy armoured airships shoot solar powered lasers, and tesla coils. I'm suspending my belief on how all these guns work. I am also suspending my belief, that after 3 years, this dev team will ever figure out how to balance their own game well. If anything is spray and pray, it's their balancing/design style.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 03:26:11 pm by Byron Cavendish »

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2016, 03:29:52 pm »
Probably not the place, but they should honestly just take off the bottom light weapon of the Spire, keep the turn speed down, maybe make it faster, and up the armor massively, while leaving the hull low. It *needs* lots of armor to work at range, with how much hull is exposed, and how hard it is to get it into cover. If it's gimmick is going to be "Only ship with a forward Light Armor/Heavy Weapon overlap" then the obvious downside to that is outmaneuvering.


Edit: Bottom light weapon is removed to limit versatility, and make arcs matter.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2016, 03:37:25 pm »
Thank you! I have been saying this for two years. Someone from Muse send Howard over here!

They got crazy with this "low armour means faster tanking idea" awhiles back. It works on the squid and fish, not the spire.

The spire is the original gunship. Unlike the mobula, it can't vertically evade. It's too tall, and it's a risk or just damn impossible on many maps. Unlike the junker, it doesn't have a slim profile, and broadsides to dodge side to side. It's a big target at small or long range. At long a merc, and artemis pair can pull it apart easily. At short, it can't stand up to flanks, or gat/mortar pressure. It's F'ed in either range band. It has always needed something else to survive, and that's either a lot of armor, or a new "true horizontal" side movement mechanic. It needs everyone on a gun to be effective. It's only defense is a good offense. If everyone isn't shooting, it's dead. There is no other reason to bring it. In order to do this, there needs to be enough armor to absorb long and short range punishment in order to fulfill its role. The balance is in the skill of the crew, just like the junker; if you mess up your shooting, you're dead. That high armour will give you just enough time to kill, but if wait too long or mess up somewhere, eventually the armour will go down and you'll die very fast. But... that armour needs to be high enough, so that a main engineer isn't standing at the damn hull the moment a fight starts!

This is where Eric will chime in with his arrogant, smug expression saying "well if the crew is really good, or the pilot is smart, they'll ambush. Why is your engineer starting the fight at the hull anyway?" Well Eric, it's because the strength of that low armour, high health design is the fact that you can bring that armour up fast. It rewards a playstyle that has more crew repairing the hull at once. High armour=one mallet limit (effective, but risky). Low armour=many spanners (spam saves us, lose effectiveness). Low armour works really well on the squid and fish because they have speed, limited guns, and easy accessible hull for all crew (even pilot). So by this design, your spire gunship, needs your heavy weapon gunner off the gunn constantly, running halfway up the ship, while your bottom engineer needs to run the entire length. So to use that many spanners design ideally (since you gave it the low armour, I'm assuming you wanted many spanners) your pilot has to be going to the hull, not flying. What's the point of that many guns facing forward when one crew member has to baby-sit the hull the entire fight, and another engineer has to leave a gun the moment you need engines or balloon?! You just lost 66% effectiveness, and chances are all that's firing is your gunner, on a heavy weapon that are designed to NOT be stand-alone!

So either you have one engineer being very ineffective on the hull (because this design works best with, that's right, many spanners!), slight effective with no pilot or no second engineer on a gun/bottom components, or highly effective with no one doing anything but spamming spanners. That's how you design a gunship folks. I'm done with this joke, please get rid of that clown and hire a lead game designer with some humility and even more experience. It's been 3 years! Most MMO's don't last this long. You've done well with the support of a community, but you're skating on thin ice. You guys can't keep leaving balance to the whims of this amateur, it's going to destroy your company.

P.S. my partner has told me she'd give Muse 10 grand on the spot if they ever did sack him. She knows Howard won't, but she is dead serious. So if you guys ever get desperate enough and need 10 grand, she'll get the checkbook.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:00:13 pm by Byron Cavendish »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2016, 03:43:56 pm »
-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play

-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat

What's this? The Squid is a ship marked as "hard", but the patch wants to make it easier for less experienced players?



If the Squid is supposed to be a ship for newbies, then it should be marked as such and then you might as well unlock it for novice matches.

Or better yet, turn the front or back gun more to the side instead, which is an actual way of making it easier for the Squid to circle targets, making it a more manouverable brawl Junker rather than a flat out better Pyramidion, we already have the Mobula for that.



The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players.

You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprsingly nothing. The only think this really affects are close range guns on the top deck of Hades, double Artemis Mobulas, making it slightly harder to execute a multi range allrounder. Slightly.



Oh yeah, and Spire nerf is completely unnecessary.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 03:47:45 pm by Dementio »

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2016, 03:53:10 pm »
-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play

-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat

What's this? The Squid is a ship marked as "hard", but the patch wants to make it easier for less experienced players?



If the Squid is supposed to be a ship for newbies, then it should be marked as such and then you might as well unlock it for novice matches.

Or better yet, turn the front or back gun more to the side instead, which is an actual way of making it easier for the Squid to circle targets, making it a more manouverable brawl Junker rather than a flat out better Pyramidion, we already have the Mobula for that.



The mobula nerf is depressing. I'm sad because it'll hurt some of my builds which rely on tight arcs with non 60 degree guns. It'll encourage the artemis meta and make it much harder for new players.

You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprsingly nothing. The only think this really affects are close range guns on the top deck of Hades, double Artemis Mobulas, making it slightly harder to execute a multi range allrounder. Slightly.



Oh yeah, and Spire nerf is completely unnecessary.

We've entered the novel "1984", and Muse has switched to doublethink

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2016, 04:03:58 pm »
I'm honestly positive about every change except the Squid one. Look, I'm on record as *hating* Sniping/Midrange meta, and loving brawling. The squid will become the best ship, though. It will be Squids of Icarus. Yes, there will be differences in skill, in loadout...but comp is just going to be a mirror of the Pyra era, but with Squids.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2016, 04:09:56 pm »
I want to be. I've been advocating for a heavy flak buff/redesign as long as the spire. But, it's like every step forward with them is two steps back. Whatever they do well, is overshadowed by the complete lunacy of the bad. I just wish they'd deliver on those private server promises so I can finally balance the game (if they even allow us that option at that point).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:12:44 pm by Byron Cavendish »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2016, 04:17:11 pm »
You can still use a Hades on the bottom deck without much trouble, 5 degrees are suprisingly nothing.

Here are the minimum distances needed to get three 50 degree flaks in arc. I don't see how this helps balance the mobula. It nerfs new pilots and restricts guns



« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:26:01 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2016, 04:27:16 pm »
But usually you have on Artemis on one side or a Banshee/Flak is on the bottom deck. Double Flak is pointless and if somebody does bring double Banshee on the top deck, then they usually have either close range guns or Artemises on the bottom deck. If there is a single Flak or Banshee on the top deck, then at worst you have to turn a little bit, but other ships also have to turn when they want to trifecta, so this is more like equalizing the penalty for using trifecta, I guess.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:31:44 pm by Dementio »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2016, 04:32:41 pm »
The point is to show that 5 degrees isn't nothing. It may have little effect on experienced players so why do it? It increases the skill cap and doesn't address why the mob is OP
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 04:38:36 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2016, 04:38:28 pm »
Who knows, why nerf the Spire that is not seen in competitive and buff the Squid that is already successful in competitive?

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2016, 04:51:01 pm »
Who knows, why nerf the Spire that is not seen in competitive and buff the Squid that is already successful in competitive?

Offline Letus

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2016, 05:04:55 pm »
Hi guys,

Sorry for the delay here's the release notes for our non-blind testing tomorrow at 12pm EST (5pm UTC).



Balance Changes:


-Squid side gun turned forward to 70 degrees (from 90)—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play

-Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat



One of these is not needed.

Just, as a squid pilot, if we make it easier for the two guns to arc easier, the mobility isn't really a needed addition, let alone you then made it hard to do some real fun passes with a triple whammy....such as stripping with a gat, zooming by, and then using the rear gun as a third option to stay in position, instead of maneuvering around.

And even with how the squid is now, jostling with your throttle to keep the guns you have in arch is a learned skill, but if you turn the gun forward, well that need is reduced, which I'm not fully complaining about..if you make it easier for a ship to give guns arc, then increase their mobility...well...I guess we'll just have fun with merc + lightflak squids that won't ever get touched...once you master that, not even a minotaur can ruin your day (it's called Kerosine or Moonshine and a great crew.)

So if we are trying either of these, it's either one or the other, not both, is what I'm trying to say....

For argument of "helping newer players."
Yes, the gun change will help...but, the mobility change can help as well.  Learning to position is a key for every ship really, the Squid is no different.

As for Hwatcha...
Why?
I know it's over used...I know it's annoying...but why the entire clip...why not just...reduce the clip size? 
I might be one of the few people who scatter shots with burst rounds when close enough to disable then follow-up-kill when hull goes down, or into another disable, a reduced clip would easily nerf that strength as well...

Otherwise, I'd just run my Hwatcha Galleon with an engineer who repair everything and have my gunner jump back and fourth between the hwatchas...and nothing would change...

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: Sunday testing release notes.
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2016, 05:13:43 pm »
I might be one of the few people who scatter shots with burst rounds when close enough to disable then follow-up-kill when hull goes down, or into another disable, a reduced clip would easily nerf that strength as well...

Most people with any experience do not use the whole clip in one volley. This is why it's a very low-skill weapon to use effectively. The only difference is between a novice, and a vet, rather than between a vet, and a vet with more skill/experience. This adds a skill aspect to the Hwatcha, and makes it harder to use effectively. A newbie *can* use it well, but using it to full potential will require prediction, accuracy, and reflex, and timing now.