Author Topic: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice  (Read 9608 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2016, 12:28:40 pm »
Double gunner won't be viable without two engi tools each. There shouldn't be an attempt to buff gunners to the point that two is viable because it will unbalance engineers and encourage players to mistakingly bring double gunner ships

Boosting gunner tool power by a factor of 2.5 wouldn't make them better than a buff engi on positions where you only need one ammo for simple guns like merc or gat, but it would buff positions where gunner is already used like heavy guns and the mine launcher. Lochnagar mines don't need a buff
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 12:31:55 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2016, 01:07:04 pm »
Also I've met very few people who play mostly as gunner who I would say are worth the salty shit they spew into lobbies, especially with double gunner trolls, giving them a buff would just increase the toxicity which those specific trolls generate and I doubt I'd bother to put up with it.


Call me pessimistic, call me rude, it does not matter but because of the sheer volume of arseholes who have trolled me just because of the class they've been requested to play. I have no want to see those types of idiots encouraged

 :'(

Offline UndeadViking

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2016, 01:53:43 pm »
Why not increasing the Efficiency of every class by making their Tools stronger. Just say if you Play Gunners, then your loaded bullets are 10% more effective. If you play engineer, Engineer repair tools are 10% more effective. And the same with the Pilot. With this simple Change, using a class more carefully becomes more necessary. I also would like to see a perk system for every class. Lets say every class gets 10 perks, which increases various stats of their Job. And everybody can bring two perks in the battle. For an example (engineer): Chemical Spray Cooldown reduced by 0,5 Seconds and Walking Speed (without Stamina) increased by 15%. This would increase the tactical depth greatly, but it also means a lot of balancing work. But for balancing reasons, i simply would make a little test Server and let the community do the work. This works really well in other games too.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 01:57:24 pm by UndeadViking »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2016, 03:06:05 pm »
Also I've met very few people who play mostly as gunner who I would say are worth the salty shit they spew into lobbies, especially with double gunner trolls, giving them a buff would just increase the toxicity which those specific trolls generate and I doubt I'd bother to put up with it.


Call me pessimistic, call me rude, it does not matter but because of the sheer volume of arseholes who have trolled me just because of the class they've been requested to play. I have no want to see those types of idiots encouraged

 :'(

Yeah but Geo, you're a special case, not one of the trolls, I know you can at least shoot whatever gun I give you, with the right ammo too.

Why not increasing the Efficiency of every class by making their Tools stronger. Just say if you Play Gunners, then your loaded bullets are 10% more effective. If you play engineer, Engineer repair tools are 10% more effective. And the same with the Pilot. With this simple Change, using a class more carefully becomes more necessary. I also would like to see a perk system for every class. Lets say every class gets 10 perks, which increases various stats of their Job. And everybody can bring two perks in the battle. For an example (engineer): Chemical Spray Cooldown reduced by 0,5 Seconds and Walking Speed (without Stamina) increased by 15%. This would increase the tactical depth greatly, but it also means a lot of balancing work. But for balancing reasons, i simply would make a little test Server and let the community do the work. This works really well in other games too.

Still not sold it to me. Engineers are needed for ship repairs, double gunner will always hold a disadvantage.

For example: pyramidion, lets assume you have two gunners, I will  simply take a banshee and laugh manically knowing that the balloon will burn till dead and the main engineer will not be able to do a thing about it because of armour breaks, the two gunners will be unable to shoot as they'll be desperately struggling to repair the balloon.

A gunner buff will only result in double gunner trolls becoming a bigger issue than they already are, and a general buff to all classes would simply mean the standard two Engineers one gunner (not min max play of triple engineer) will stay the same.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2016, 04:08:48 pm »
There will be upgradeable skills in the upcoming Alliance mode. Perks will not be in Skirmish mode

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2016, 10:40:00 am »
Why not increasing the Efficiency of every class by making their Tools stronger. (...)

It's against Muse's policy of "everyone is equal in what they are doing", which was perhaps tackled with stamina, but still alive in them.

Also, the examples for 2 gunner supremacy are false. Munker and Galleon usually work better with 2 engineers.

I think the problem is much bigger than this 10-20-orwhatever% of repair bonus. This is something that the whole game is based upon.

Offline UndeadViking

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2016, 07:43:43 am »
Quote
Still not sold it to me. Engineers are needed for ship repairs, double gunner will always hold a disadvantage.

For example: pyramidion, lets assume you have two gunners, I will  simply take a banshee and laugh manically knowing that the balloon will burn till dead and the main engineer will not be able to do a thing about it because of armour breaks, the two gunners will be unable to shoot as they'll be desperately struggling to repair the balloon.

A gunner buff will only result in double gunner trolls becoming a bigger issue than they already are, and a general buff to all classes would simply mean the standard two Engineers one gunner (not min max play of triple engineer) will stay the same.

Well, more fire power means disabling guns faster. So, the enemy is unable to attack if you attack correctly, even with 2 engineers.


Quote
It's against Muse's policy of "everyone is equal in what they are doing", which was perhaps tackled with stamina, but still alive in them.

Also, the examples for 2 gunner supremacy are false. Munker and Galleon usually work better with 2 engineers.

I think the problem is much bigger than this 10-20-orwhatever% of repair bonus. This is something that the whole game is based upon.

I never said that. Engineer only becomes stronger with engineer tools, gunenrwith bullets and so on. This makes more difference between classes. So and tehre comes in my idea of perks, which makes even more differences between the classes.


Quote
There will be upgradeable skills in the upcoming Alliance mode. Perks will not be in Skirmish mode

Ok, but that is PvE. So upgradeable skills arent a problem. Perks really would increase the differences of the classes. Still, it needs some time to balacne. The developers could begin with 3 for every class and increase it time after time.



Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2016, 09:19:51 am »
Perks would make experienced players more powerful. For each ship position there would be clear meta choices which perk to bring, and I bet there would be an overall meta perk. It'll give experienced players another advantage

The consensus is that gunners are balanced because they have their use. Sometimes engis are better than gunners because there's no reason for more ammos on simple guns that don't need extra arcs. Buffing gunners won't make them more viable without breaking balance on guns that gunners are used on. Double gunner cannot be viable without two engi tools. No matter how powerful they are a double gunner ship is easily countered by disable and fire. To make double gunner viable would break balance
« Last Edit: February 20, 2016, 09:22:59 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2016, 10:45:50 am »
Perks would make experienced players more powerful. For each ship position there would be clear meta choices which perk to bring, and I bet there would be an overall meta perk. It'll give experienced players another advantage

The consensus is that gunners are balanced because they have their use. Sometimes engis are better than gunners because there's no reason for more ammos on simple guns that don't need extra arcs. Buffing gunners won't make them more viable without breaking balance on guns that gunners are used on. Double gunner cannot be viable without two engi tools. No matter how powerful they are a double gunner ship is easily countered by disable and fire. To make double gunner viable would break balance

Or require every ship be redesigned to allow one engineer to fix everything...

So I'm happy with gunners as they are and have been looking for more uses for them, with some success.

Offline Kingsania

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2016, 03:38:18 pm »
A lot of interesting points in this discussion, but I think we're going about this the wrong way. The point of being a gunner is to keep the other guys' guns down so your engineers can fix the ship. With that in mind, they should be entirely focused on shooting. So instead of increasing gunner's repair speed on guns, simply increase rebuilt guns' starting health. Not back to full health, mind you, but enough so they can hop on right away to turn and shoot. The gunner would need to be the one to finish building the gun for this to apply. This wouldn't make gunner op as it doesn't apply in every combat scenario, but it makes them more viable under intense enemy fire.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2016, 12:17:45 am »
I have been thinking about this for some time now, and it has always made more sense to me that a gunner would be able to fix guns faster than someone more used to fixing the rest of the ship. You don't take your guns to a mechanic.

Stamina is crap. I have always hated the way it was implemented. Wider arcs are the worst of the bunch.

No more buff gunners. Never should have been. This breaks game balance more than anything else. Anyone that tries to say "But buffgunners blah blah blah better than gunners." instantly loses massive amounts of my respect. No tool should change what an AMMO does, unless you are taking apart every single bullet and modifying them. Changing gun arcs, shortening loading times, increasing gun movement, and reducing recoil should have been the domain of the buff hammer. Stamina would never have been needed since an engineer would have been supplementing a gun's abilities but not its damage.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2016, 11:28:32 am »
This is actually more or less perfect. switch functionality of buff hammer and gunner stamina.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2016, 12:18:19 pm »
I would not be opposed to gunner 'stamina' being used to very briefly increase damage like the buff does now. But change the name to 'Focus' instead, allowing the gunner to focus completely on the gun and the target. Give it a cool tunnel vision effect and a slight zoom. Mute or muffle all chat and other game sounds, remove all other UI, . Whatever. Have it reduce recoil a bit similar to holding breath in virtually all other games with a FP gun. Have it do more damage, like most other games that have a 'focus' mode. Remove buff damage increase. Give guns back to gunners. I have been yelling this exact thing since I first heard of stamina.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 12:20:18 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2016, 09:31:29 pm »
already suggested long ago that all other crews revert to the old ammo change mechanic of being trapped on the gun to load ammo.

While the gunner has the exclusive ability to quick reload.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2016, 04:42:16 am »
already suggested long ago that all other crews revert to the old ammo change mechanic of being trapped on the gun to load ammo.

While the gunner has the exclusive ability to quick reload.

This idea, I like this idea.