Author Topic: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice  (Read 9609 times)

Offline Dawson the Wizard

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Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« on: February 15, 2016, 07:16:01 pm »
Hello all, again, another Wizard proposal:

We all know that having 2 Engineers is better than having 2 Gunners, with few exceptions.  And often it's as practical (if not more practical) to run 3 Engineers and no Gunners, especially on boats like the Pyramidion and Squid.  I can't imagine that Muse actually wants gunners to be inferior in principle.  Gunner Stamina was a great way to add inherent value to the class, but the introduction of Engineer's sprinting through Stamina added a whole new layer of usefulness to Engineers.  I don't think giving Gunners an extra repair tool is a good idea, because Wrench + Buff hammer would be everywhere and cause a whole new set of problems.  Without making Gunners "better" at guns (i.e. moar damage), I think there's a good way to make Gunners more relevant, to the point that 2 Gunners + 1 Engineer wouldn't be crazy.  So let's introduce the Gunner "class skill":

Gunners rebuild and repair guns 40% faster

This "class skill" would keep Gunners doing their job (shooting guns), and let a Captain who's stuck with two stubborn Gunners be confident that the ship can stay competitive.  Fire would still be an issue for Engineers to solve, but increased gun repair would make the Gunners less helpless when Arties and Mercs and Manticores wipe out components.  All ships (and I imagine especially the Gally and Junker) could therefore endorse 1-2 Gunners as a serious option.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 07:26:23 pm by Dawson the Wizard »

Offline Giersdorf

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 10:29:53 pm »
I play engineer a lot, I find myself shooting a lot and having to jump off to repair the hull and/or Chem the balloon in between shooting. This is something I can get behind as two gunners is extremely risky as I have see in my short play time.

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 11:34:34 pm »
Gunners rebuild and repair guns 40% faster

While I'm interested in this in principle, two questions:

1. Why 40% Why not 50%? Why not 25%? Just seems... arbitrary.
2. What do you mean "faster?" They swing their tools faster? They rebuild/repair 40% more damage? Don't forget about cool-down time.

Offline Dawson the Wizard

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 11:44:54 pm »
Ballpark number.  Something that puts a Gunner on par/ahead of Engineers for rebuild/repair time on guns.  "Faster" like "getting more for your swings and therefore require less time" faster, not increased animation speed faster.

Since hwachas and artemises are the meta these days, I figure two birds can be slain with one bullet by making Gunners competent gun-handymen.  And again, to make the Gunner an actual choice, instead of an exception.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2016, 12:05:27 am »
40% is a lot. Wrench rebuilds 17% slower than spanner and repairs 16% slower than mallet. 40% means a gunner gets a 2.5 multiplied boost in tool power

Wrench has a faster swing speed than spanner. Wrench repairs 24 HP/second and mallet 27.8
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 12:16:17 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline Dawson the Wizard

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 01:01:30 am »
40% is a lot. Wrench rebuilds 17% slower than spanner and repairs 16% slower than mallet. 40% means a gunner gets a 2.5 multiplied boost in tool power

Wrench has a faster swing speed than spanner. Wrench repairs 24 HP/second and mallet 27.8

That's kind of the point.  As it is, the Gunner is usually an inferior choice, and there's only a couple ships I can think of (Munker, long-range Galleon) that can benefit from having more than 1 Gunner.  Again―as it is, the Engineer is often as safe or better a choice than Gunner for all ships.  I don't like having a whole class that is generally inferior to another, and (in a perfect world) there would be enough balance between the two that going 2&1 either way is safe.  I also have no conceptual problem if Gunners were better than the best Engineer at rebuilding/repairing guns.  It's in their name, for heaven's sake, and whether 20% or 40% or 60% or arbitrary percentile occurred in this mythical imaginationland, it would still be a good fit for Gunners and help reduce the contextual benefit of Shatter weapons without nerfing those weapons directly.

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 02:09:39 am »
There aren't ships that benefit from more than one pilot.  Does that mean pilot is an inferior class?

Gunner is more specialized than engineer.  Two engineers is necessary.  You simply cannot keep most ships together without two engineers.

Offline Dawson the Wizard

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 02:24:16 am »
There aren't ships that benefit from more than one pilot.  Does that mean pilot is an inferior class?

Gunner is more specialized than engineer.  Two engineers is necessary.  You simply cannot keep most ships together without two engineers.

That's a mighty big false equivalency.  There's only 1 helm.  There's at least 3 guns.

And the whole reason I've posted this in the suggestions is as you said, 2 engineers is necessary, and 2 gunners can't keep up.  It doesn't have to be that way.

Offline ZnC

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2016, 03:37:36 am »
While the suggestion is interesting, I think stamina has already made the Gunner much more versatile in its defined role. An engineer is designed to be more efficient in repairs than gunners (in all cases), and your suggestion contradicts that. Even if it is implemented, 2 gunners will not help the ship in staying alive. Whereas, a second engineer with another spanner mallet or buff kit would.

Rubber Mallet
Repair: 250hp
Cooldown: 9s
Repair rate: 27.8 per second
Rebuild: 2

Shifting Spanner
Repair: 40hp
Cooldown: 2s
Repair rate: 20
Rebuild: 5

Pipe Wrench
Repair: 120hp
Cooldown: 5s
Repair rate: 24 per second
Rebuild: 4

Pipe Wrench (+40% to guns)
Repair: 168hp
Cooldown: 5s
Repair rate: 33.6 per second
Rebuild: 5.6

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 03:44:47 am »
I'm not intending to be a rude git when I say this but...

I've said my opinions on this on more than enough threads...

Stamina has made gunners a more viable choice in a fair few situations, that enough for me.


Also I've met very few people who play mostly as gunner who I would say are worth the salty shit they spew into lobbies, especially with double gunner trolls, giving them a buff would just increase the toxicity which those specific trolls generate and I doubt I'd bother to put up with it.


Call me pessimistic, call me rude, it does not matter but because of the sheer volume of arseholes who have trolled me just because of the class they've been requested to play. I have no want to see those types of idiots encouraged

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2016, 04:30:33 am »
Gunners are relevant choice already. Almost everyone is using gunner today on a goldfish or spire. Stamina reload and arc increase makes them viable even in competitive today and I don't see reason to have 2 gunner ships any point. If you have heavy gun then sure, but no good pilot will sentence his ship to burn down because of one stupid flamethrower. Gunners are already viable and frustrating with their sick hwacha arcs.

Offline SiepeAssassina

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2016, 06:40:41 am »
Last time they tried to buff the gunner we got stamina which utterly destroyed the game.
What now?

Offline Newbluud

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 06:51:46 am »
Last time they tried to buff the gunner we got stamina which utterly destroyed the game.
What now?
Changed*

I don't care for or have many problems with stamina. It's just there. It's a mechanic. It hasn't really upset the balance more than shifted it. Although a rebuild buff on guns? Yeah, I'd not want to see that. It'd make hwacha slapfights doubly as tedious.

Offline Hunter.

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 07:36:57 am »
I like it, it would need a lot of fine tuning in the dev app - also it would require Muse to stop working on Alliance.. which we all know won't happen ;)

Offline Coiler

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Re: Make Gunners A Relevant Choice
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 09:52:03 am »
The ridiculous angles and the slight reload boost brought by stamina is more than enough to put a gunner above a third engineer
If it ain't broke don't fix it