Author Topic: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?  (Read 11289 times)

Offline xedeon

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Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« on: January 15, 2016, 01:42:30 pm »
In light of recent events concerning the Cronus League, we believe that there are some issues that should be addressed by the community.

To start with, we have some grievances with the current event. There have been many rule changes, most without direct notification via post. Lueosi has documented most changes and the lack of posts should be self evident. There was not even notification via post on the time change of the first event. Some of the rules changed could affect a ship's score. Losing points for something you never knew about is not exactly fair.

Another thing that is not quite fair is excluding people from participating just because they wear a clan tag, even though they are completely within the rules laid down for the event. Only Areus was contacted at first about the issue that lead to the disqualification of HelFyre. If more Ryders had known about this issue when it first arose, we could have provided information on all of our crews and properly resolved this issue. HelFyre is still not allowed to participate without penalty, even though he was in the rules and disqualified unfairly.

The last thing is that there is only one organizer. We thank you for creating this tournament, and we know it is very difficult work, but there should be additional organizers to help out with all of the things that have to be done so the event can happen, namely the last second issues that pop up for literally any event, e.g. finding casters.

We have discussed some possible solutions to these issues amongst ourselves, and would like to share them with the community. It would be great if the Bureau of Competitive Affairs could make some guidelines that community events should have to follow in order to be pinned and remain pinned in the official forums. But, in absence of such guidelines, and to help the Bureau if they decide to make guidelines, we propose this constitution:

Constitution for Community-Made Events

Article One: Organizers and Referees
Section One
A Community-Made Event shall have at least one Event Organizer. The Event Organizers make the first set of rules, bringing the event into existence, and chose a time for the event to happen. The Event Organizers shall also execute the rules as to ensure a fair, proper, and professional Event.
Section Two
If there is only one Event Organizer, he/she is required to post a Referee Recruitment Application thread and chose at least one Referee. If there is more than one Event Organizer, they do not have to recruit a Referee, but they still can. There is no limit to the amount of Referees an Event has.
Section Three
A Referee is to assist the Event Organizers with tasks relating to the running of the Event, such as updating brackets, finding streamers/casters, etc. A Referee will execute the rules laid down by the Event Organizers to ensure a fair, proper, and professional Event. A Referee must also act as an ambassador of the Event Organizers to the community. A Referee may play on a team in the Event, but must show no special service to his/her team. Doing so will result in removal of Referee status and, if deemed necessary by the Event Organizers, disqualification of the team. A Referee playing in a match of an Event will not referee for that match.
Section Four
Event Organizers may referee matches and appoint temporary referees who will oversee Event matches. An appointed Referee may appoint a temporary referee, but must notify the Event Organisers of this decision. The Event Organizers may block this appointment. Temporary referees must be documented somewhere that the community has access to.
Article Two: Event Rules
Section One
For any Community-Made Event, the Event Organizer must post all of the rules on the official forums (links to pages that contain the rules are acceptable and recommended) at least two weeks before teams start signing up for the event as to allow community review of the rules to help spot loopholes, unfair rules, overlooked items.
Section Two
Event Organizers must post replies containing their view on the proposals, along with acceptance or denial of part or all of the proposals to the rules, especially ones that are supported by a large amount of the community. It is not required that the rules be changed by proposals though.
Article Three: Execution of Rules
Section One
If a team is in violation of the rules, the Event Organizers/Referees must contact the team immediately and inform them of what exactly they are violating, what the punishment is, and allow a reasonable amount of time for the team to right itself. If the team does not, they receive the punishment. If the team is part of a clan and the offense more than trivial, contact other teams part of the clan, and if severe enough, contact the clan officers/leader as well (if they are not part of the team already) about the offense. If other people were contacted (or could not be reached in time before punishment) about an offense, report to them the situation, offense, and punishment.
Section Two
If a team is to be disqualified, a post is to be made that documents what the team did to deserve disqualification. The team that is disqualified can protest the disqualification in that post. Protests are a sensible argument for why the team should not be disqualified, not whining. Event Organizers/Referees will make a response to any protest, either validating it or countering it. The team can make one final protest against the counter. The community gets to make the final call on the issue. Members of the community can post their agreement or disagreement on the issue. A majority of community members can overturn the disqualification. The majority will be calculated by counting posts in favor of disqualification and against disqualification. Event Organizers and Referees replies count in the vote, but the replies of people on the team in question will not be counted in the vote.
Section Three
If the Event Organizers do not follow the guidelines outlined by this constitution to the point that issues occur and people are frustrated by the poor organization, the community is encouraged to not participate in the Event and voice their grievances in an orderly fashion on the forums.
Article Four: Amendments
Section One
The community can add amendments to this constitution as it sees fit. Amendments shall be added by posting a suggestion and having that suggestion gain a majority of approval from the community.
Section Two
Amendments shall be suggested as an additional article with as many sections as needed. No article may be removed, but a following article may edit or nullify a previous article.

Community feedback would be appreciated, be it critique or additional ideas, as this concerns the entire community. We are suggesting this constitution because we believe that if an event is made by the community, it is a direct responsibility of the community to oversee it run smoothly. If this gains enough support, we would like to make a fresh copy (possibly with some revisions) and pin it in this forum. Thank you to all past, current, and future event organizers, you put great effort and dedication into these events that we all enjoy.

Thank you for your time and for your consideration. Have a nice day.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 01:57:33 pm »
LOL

Offline DrTentacles

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 02:05:32 pm »
Sounds like a matter for the BoCA.

Or any other event organizer the community has systematically alienated. I could go through a list, but I don't have nearly the time.

Look, I'm fairly certain I take tournaments a fair bit less seriously than the majority of the community did. And it sucks to be thrown out early. The insane amount of negativity, rather than constructive criticism (and this post is in now way constructive, let's be honest. If you want better event standards, you offer to help, not make some toothless populist manifesto) is just...mind-blowing.

Our tournaments are not streamed to thousands of audiences. There is no money to be earned (we alienated MLG already, so that's out the window). No one cares other than the community...which we seem very happy to throw under the bus at a moment's notice. Running an event is overwhelming. If it's having trouble, and you have an issue, offer to help. Cast. Referee. Do...something, instead of pressure that *won't matter* other than cause stress and bad blood.

Offline Nat Nyls

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 03:49:12 pm »
As much as I like these guidelines, when BoCA initially showed up, people started thinking they'd control their events, which led to them pretty much keep a distance from events that haven't talked to them to begin with. Now you want to put strict guidelines on how any community-made event must be run. I'm seriously surprised BoCA's even around still because of the amount of shit this community stirs up. First you want BoCA to stay out, now you want BoCA to set rules for every single competition out there. The amount of 180s you people pull is astounding.

Like Tentacles points out, this isn't professional, this isn't MLG, there's no prize. Organisers stress the living hell out of themselves in order to set up something they think would be fun for the community.

Offline Silent Marauder

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 04:27:37 pm »
Even though I do not agree 100% with the way it is presented, I'd personally like to point out rule changes that happened without any heads up. Because of random, not listed rule change, one of the teams could get point reduction and/or get disqualified, and I'm not even talking about HelFyre's team. Come on, who does that? There should be any kind of notice, be it through forum post or forwarding it to team captains. Calling for locking the document containing rules to avoid any further edit.

Second thing: I find getting disqualified due to a clan tag and miscommunication unfair. As xedeon said, only Areus was contacted prior to HelFyre's disqualification. I understand the need to follow schedule. Hell, I even understand that there's only one organizer and he could entirely forget to contact teams. But one person was spoken to. Was it because he's CA? Or was it because of other reasons? Why didn't you contact anyone else? Please explain it to us.


LOL
^Let's all consider it a thread bump, so it reaches more people.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 08:18:13 pm »
A fun fact is that there have been no unannounced rule changes since sign ups started (with the exception of the time change). The rules were initially written several months ago and posted for everyone to see and comment on. Due to player feedback, we adjusted the rules before sign ups. The link was re-distributed at sign ups for everyone to look at the rules. If you didn't think there was going to be any changes since it was announced in October SPECIFICALLY ASKING FOR FEEDBACK, then I can't help you. I'm not sure anyone can.

The time change was both unfortunate and fortunate. As stated, the event was originally designed months ago, during daylights saving time. This went unnoticed until teams started asking about what time the tournament started, and it was changed to standard time. This shouldn't have happened, but it did. It was also necessary to get a hold of other casters, since both our scheduled casters weren't available.

That being said, these suggestions aren't bad. I would encourage organizers to adopt them into their rulesets as necessary. However, it's not possible to enforce them. Community run events are community run events. Individuals make the rules. BoCA tries to help, but they do not enforce anything. It's totally up to the organizers, and that's how it should be.

Offline Skybox-

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 11:31:34 pm »
I support this, but I have one issue about what events it applies to. I believe that it should apply ONLY to events sponsored by Muse/BoCA.

The insane amount of negativity, rather than constructive criticism (and this post is in now way constructive, let's be honest. If you want better event standards, you offer to help, not make some toothless populist manifesto) is just...mind-blowing.

-Snip-

 If it's having trouble, and you have an issue, offer to help. Cast. Referee. Do...something, instead of pressure that *won't matter* other than cause stress and bad blood.

Please, someone informing players & event organizers about a problem and then spending a long time creating a suggestion of rules to help fix said problems and prevent similar incidents in the future is most certainly constructive criticism. I don't see how it isn't a form of help either.

-Snip-
Now you want to put strict guidelines on how any community-made event must be run.
-Snip-
Like Tentacles points out, this isn't professional, this isn't MLG, there's no prize. Organisers stress the living hell out of themselves in order to set up something they think would be fun for the community.

Even though Cronus Leauge isn't professional, that doesn't mean suggestions & guidelines cannot be offered, does it? No. I don't think so.

Despite my support of this article, I do not believe it should automatically apply to ALL community events, I believe that it should only apply to events sponsored by Muse/BoCA themselves. (Not organized by Muse/BoCA, sponsored.) If someone wants to hold their event without Muse/BoCA sponsoring them, then they do not need to follow any event guidelines set by Muse/BoCA yet they are still free to use said guidelines.

Offline Nat Nyls

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2016, 12:34:20 am »
Even though Cronus Leauge isn't professional, that doesn't mean suggestions & guidelines cannot be offered, does it? No. I don't think so.
Actually, BoCA has been quite helpful with suggesting and assisting with setting up the rules for Cronus.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2016, 12:45:14 am »
Cronus League isn't professional in what sense?

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2016, 03:34:50 am »
I'm not a fan of additional layers but if that helps improving event organization then so be it. The "Constitution for Community-Made Events" you suggested is imho quite verbose in some points but provides a good base to setup a fair community driven event. I especially find the III.1 point about communication on violation important.

It would be nice if BoCa adapts these or similar guidelines to ease competitive or semi-competitive community event drafting and execution.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2016, 05:26:58 am »
Thomas is right. The rules and design was posted long ago for input and tweaking. I know because I posted on it.

Frankly any miscommunication is not his fault, it is the contender's fault for not being prepared. While I sympathize with GSR because I've worked with them before and find them to be upstanding folks, if they crossed a rule, then if the consequences were written in, it is within Thomas's right to adhere to them and enforce.

You either have more strict/rigid events or you have more loose/open events.

Quote
Section One
For any Community-Made Event, the Event Organizer must post all of the rules on the official forums (links to pages that contain the rules are acceptable and recommended) at least two weeks before teams start signing up for the event as to allow community review of the rules to help spot loopholes, unfair rules, overlooked items.

Sounds all nice and good but I've seen it before. You can post all you want and give as much time as possible, but people won't read or check it until the event starts. Even then sometimes folks forget and need refreshers. There just isn't enough at stake. This is more of a hobby.

Thomas welcome to my world! :D Now you've experienced the reasons why Aerodrome downgraded the ruleset and became more open!!

It's just so much easier to manage if you aren't stressing over it as much.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 11:36:59 am »
Event rules are always tough. You can either crack down on them, or try to be flexible. I generally try to be flexible without completely disregarding the rule, and there's always exceptions. You could have the most exhaustive list of rules anywhere, and something will still happen that wasn't accounted for. What if you set the sign up deadline and many teams forgot and started signing up just barely past the deadline? What if only one team signed up just past the deadline? What if you have rules about loadouts and the ref missed someone breaking that rule right before the end of the match? What if your rules state that teams have to have 8 players, but one of their members is late?

The list goes on and on. If you enforce a rule that gives one team a hard time (such as not being able to pause while spotted), you're being too strict or the rules are unfair. If you let a team in that signed up late and they start doing well, people will tell you they shouldn't have been able to participate  and need to be disqualified. Regardless of the decisions you make, not everyone is going to be happy about the rules or how they're applied.

But maybe it's just better to be as strict as possible and enforce the rules to the letter, even if being lenient would make the event more enjoyable. Such as letting a team start a match with 7 people and have their 8th person join when they arrived, even if the rules state that teams must be 8 players. Letting them start a match with 7 people lets their team play and enjoy themselves, and gives their opponents someone to play against. But it's also against the rules and the AI that's on the ship might shoot through the clouds, giving away the enemy position and allowing the 7 person team to win (one of the reasons rules generally require full teams).

Offline Agent Kinforth

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 12:07:03 pm »
TL:DR: We are more than willing to help where the community sees fit.

BoCA was created to assist the community with competitive events and organization. We have stated many times before and will again here state that we are not here to take over competitive. Policing is not our objective and was the concern of many when we first started out. Due to the contention that was presented at that time we felt it was best to back off and allow community members with ideas or that wanted assistance to come to us. Many have.

In saying this, we are here for the needs and wants of the community. If the community would like us to take a more active role we can. Rules, guidelines and standards were something BoCA had discussed and created but never posted due to the contention that was felt. While we think these guidelines posted above are not a bad start they would definitely need feedback from the community and altering before putting out as a “community set standard” and BoCA would be more than willing to oversee and do the leg work for this process if it is something the community truly wants.

With a cautionary note though, BoCA can help create, suggest and oversee guidelines, standards and common rules as the community sees fit, however, we do not hold nor seek, authority to enforce these. Organizers will have to have their own personal responsibility to hold themselves to a higher standard. If an organizer does not want help or assistance from BoCA, that is an organizer's choice. If an organizer does ask for assistance from BoCA but does not follow the guidelines, at best (or worst depending on perspective) we could do is pull assistance.

Organizers take on a very daunting role in the community. They put out a lot of work and effort, spend a lot of their personal time to create something they think others in the community will enjoy. Many, if not most, take a lot of flak and some stop organizing or leave the game due to the negativity that is thrown their way. Remember, different players enjoy different styles and level of game play. The only true way competitive in Gun of Icarus will succeed and flourish is by the community detoxifying itself and to work together. We are all after the same end goal here (a strong competitive community). Organizers are human and will make mistakes even with their best intentions to have things perfect before they go live. Allow them some forgiveness and make constructive suggestions. There are plenty of roles any player can do to help competitive from organizing, being a referee, casting, making graphics for events, providing trailers for publicity for an event, getting friends together to play in an event or even just watching the event and sharing it with friends or on social media. Let’s see this as a chance to come together and work together for a better constructive competitive community.

Offline xedeon

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Re: Event Organization - Could it be Better?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 01:16:07 pm »
I know it would be a lot of work, but maybe it would be worth it, but what if there was a way for things event organizers post, like their rule sets, to be visible in game? Like an event notification about the rules being posted. Because lets be honest, some people in the game, like the newer people, might not even know the forums exist or be that interested in them, and some of the people who are interested might not check the forums that often. That should be a win/win. If an organizer works with BoCA, proper organization is ensured and the event gets more publicity. Working under guidelines can be a benefit to organizers in ways not just related to the guidelines. If the event is done within the guidelines and an issue arises, the organizer can defend himself/herself from flame by stating how he/she has followed the guidelines, and the person/group angered by the issue has guidelines to follow about the resolution of the issue, and if the issue is with the guidelines, there is a way to change that as well.

Thank you for you feedback on this issue. Hopefully something good can come from this, as that was my intention starting this topic. As the BoCA agent said, let us work together to improve the competitive community, and the community in general.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Event Organisation - Could it be Better?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2016, 07:03:00 pm »
Not going to weigh in on the manifesto as I doubt it will see much adoption, but I will make the following observation, the top google results for 'competitive guns of icarus' results in:

A rules page I've never been referred to with no links to the current competitive scene.
A a page on the competitive scene with a vague mission and no links to the SCS or other ongoing events.
A page on the Fabria Conclusion, something I have never even heard of. This at least has a link to the twitch feed, but it shows the fireside chat, I'm assuming because recent competitive events were streamed on casters own channels.
Videos, the first in French by Flib  (no bad things to say about Flib but French isn't lingua franca anymore meaning lots of people wont be able to understand what this SCS they are talking about in the video is).
Another video tutorial on how to pilot competitively in which the very first comment is someone asking how the heck they are supposed to keep up with the competitive scene.
Next non-video link is an old reddit post by Sammy which links to Hepheastus, not exactly current.

I think there might be a problem there.