Author Topic: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards  (Read 39435 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2016, 07:17:20 pm »
Quote from: T Machine
How is that different than any competitive game out there? Of course best teams will get rewards. Every single top team or player had to practice and earn their place where they are now. If anyone wants rewards, then work for it. I played tournaments even though I knew Rydrs would take golden badge, but so what? At least I know I tried. Should we just drop rewards just because it wouldn't be fair for weaker teams? If they really care that much for rewards, maybe they can be motivated by them to get better.
Yes it's ok to give a "Skirmish Champion" award, but "Skirmisher" isn't a reward. I don't believe a winners title will have any affect on new teams' motivation. Here's a solution instead of complaints: a real reward for participation, or even better, dynamic rewards for playing SCS

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2016, 07:35:45 pm »
It has been over twelve hours so I'll ask this again, and if I don't have a response in the next few hours then I'll take my best guess: What is the reasoning behind this? Why make it a thing? For the love of GoIO, stop talking in circles and just answer me honestly.

Maybe I am reading your posts wrong. I feel like you have animosity towards this subject. If I had to guess (which I will) I would say the purpose / reasoning is to get more people to sign up to SCS. Last week only had two teams (SkBo and Ryder) and that's not good for the competition. Furthermore, it is probably to see the community's reaction towards SCS participants being given rewards.

As for the posts that are bashing the "Skirmisher" title:

I am personally happy to be able to earn this title. I will proudly put it before my name. Finding the opportunity to compete in an SCS was a challenge for me. I had to find a clan. I had to play with that clan. Eventually I was able to participate.

Likewise, knowing that I participated in an event that required refs, streamers, and other teams makes me feel part of something. To me it is the feeling akin to running a 5k where my "reward" would be a shirt. It isn't anything special or unique, though I may be proud. However, I may wear it for the next event - say - a 20K; or randomly throughout the house.




« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 07:42:52 pm by Solidusbucket »

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2016, 07:48:48 pm »
Considering that SCS is the only competitive 2v2 event currently running, the idea that it's "too serious" and "should be a practice event" betrays a cluelessness which would be funny, if not for the fact that there are people holding that opinion who have been tasked with "building the competitive scene".

KitKatKitty: Given the massive failure of your event (Blood and Brass), you're not really in a place to be criticizing other organizers. In fact, before the winter break, SCS ran four tournaments with equal or greater participation than Blood and Brass. Maybe you should be asking Lueosi for advice?

Your opinions are always so insightful.

First, the SCS is the only 8-player event currently running. But we've had Aero 3 (4-player), Blood and Brass (8-player) and now Cronus (4-player) which at the current state of competitive is a good mix for all teams to play in event they enjoy. Seeing as most clans can not field 8-player teams you can't fault organizers for putting on 4-player competitions.

Just because SCS is the only 8-player event doesn't mean it should be serious. The SCS was created as a practice event. For teams to come together to practice on a reliable basis. If the organizers of SCS would like to create a serious 8-player event they can but that doesn't mean they should change the intent of the SCS. My comment doesn't portray cluelessness yet quite the opposite. I've actually spent time talking to people of the community and having members fill out surveys. Which if you would like to you can fill one out too. RIGHT HERE because I don't have a large enough ego to think that I know everything that the community thinks and will change the event based on what the communities feedback is.

Which comes to your last comment...just because the SCS has, at 1 point in time, a higher turn out than the Blood and Brass does not mean that the Blood and Brass was a failure. Not only has quite a lot of the participants personally told me they thought it was a success but 100% of the responses from the survey said they enjoyed playing in the event. The lack of turn out comes from the lack of teams able to field 8-players than it was about the event itself.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2016, 07:57:44 pm »
Maybe I am reading your posts wrong. I feel like you have animosity towards this subject. If I had to guess (which I will) I would say the purpose / reasoning is to get more people to sign up to SCS...

I just, I don't understand this, how is me asking for information a bad thing? Am I a bit annoyed, ya. I asked before I went to work and now I just really want to go to bed, but I still haven't gotten what I would qualify as an answer. Is it really too much to ask for an explicit "we felt this would be a good thing because X, Y, and Z"?

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2016, 08:43:34 pm »
Maybe I am reading your posts wrong. I feel like you have animosity towards this subject. If I had to guess (which I will) I would say the purpose / reasoning is to get more people to sign up to SCS...

I just, I don't understand this, how is me asking for information a bad thing? Am I a bit annoyed, ya. I asked before I went to work and now I just really want to go to bed, but I still haven't gotten what I would qualify as an answer. Is it really too much to ask for an explicit "we felt this would be a good thing because X, Y, and Z"?

Your question was answered.

"That's why we want to return the gratitude with some small rewards."

That is your answer. The titles are a symbol of appreciation. There is probably more incentive than what is on the surface but it is still an acceptable answer.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2016, 09:22:20 pm »
I'm don't feel this really addresses the over all concern for the players who think SCS has become too serious with the same outcome every week and has gone away from the initial idea of it being a practice event to help teams become better not discourage them from competitive.
Timmy B was not serious tournament and it had rewards as far as I know, so why SCS shouldn't have them too? Why do you think only serious matches should be rewarded?

The concern is that these rewards won't accomplish anything and will only benefit the few teams already at the top: including you and Lueosi. SCS isn't very dynamic with the same teams winning every week and few new joiners. It's great to see recent teams like RAWR and Why So Serious but they don't stand a chance against the established winners

You can only use one title and I doubt any players will flaunt "Skirmisher", but the distinguished elite will proudly display their "Skirmish Champion". Therefore it doesn't help SCS and only benefits the already established winners

How is that different than any competitive game out there? Of course best teams will get rewards. Every single top team or player had to practice and earn their place where they are now. If anyone wants rewards, then work for it. I played tournaments even though I knew Rydrs would take golden badge, but so what? At least I know I tried. Should we just drop rewards just because it wouldn't be fair for weaker teams? If they really care that much for rewards, maybe they can be motivated by them to get better.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was in their places (new players/team) I would be motivated and would feel great accomplishment once I would finally get that reward.
It's same as MMOs for example. You just gotta deal with it, some stuff is hard to get, if you're not willing to put enough work or you don't have time or whatever, you might never get it, it's that simple. Not everyone can have everything. You won't see me complaining about guild wars 2 and legendary weapons for example "Hey, I'm too lazy to grind for hundreds of hours to get that legendary weapon, that's not fair, I don't have as much time as hardcore players".  It's good that games have some hard to achieve goals, that's what many people keeps playing.

Quote
I see your point. This is a valid point.

Offline Rareform K. Rozhkov

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2016, 09:23:08 pm »
I'm don't feel this really addresses the over all concern for the players who think SCS has become too serious with the same outcome every week and has gone away from the initial idea of it being a practice event to help teams become better not discourage them from competitive.
Timmy B was not serious tournament and it had rewards as far as I know, so why SCS shouldn't have them too? Why do you think only serious matches should be rewarded?

The concern is that these rewards won't accomplish anything and will only benefit the few teams already at the top: including you and Lueosi. SCS isn't very dynamic with the same teams winning every week and few new joiners. It's great to see recent teams like RAWR and Why So Serious but they don't stand a chance against the established winners

You can only use one title and I doubt any players will flaunt "Skirmisher", but the distinguished elite will proudly display their "Skirmish Champion". Therefore it doesn't help SCS and only benefits the already established winners

How is that different than any competitive game out there? Of course best teams will get rewards. Every single top team or player had to practice and earn their place where they are now. If anyone wants rewards, then work for it. I played tournaments even though I knew Rydrs would take golden badge, but so what? At least I know I tried. Should we just drop rewards just because it wouldn't be fair for weaker teams? If they really care that much for rewards, maybe they can be motivated by them to get better.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was in their places (new players/team) I would be motivated and would feel great accomplishment once I would finally get that reward.
It's same as MMOs for example. You just gotta deal with it, some stuff is hard to get, if you're not willing to put enough work or you don't have time or whatever, you might never get it, it's that simple. Not everyone can have everything. You won't see me complaining about guild wars 2 and legendary weapons for example "Hey, I'm too lazy to grind for hundreds of hours to get that legendary weapon, that's not fair, I don't have as much time as hardcore players".  It's good that games have some hard to achieve goals, that's what many people keeps playing.

Quote
I see your point. This is a valid point.
Solidus has a great point here. I like titles

Offline lolTSM

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2016, 09:25:11 pm »
I'm don't feel this really addresses the over all concern for the players who think SCS has become too serious with the same outcome every week and has gone away from the initial idea of it being a practice event to help teams become better not discourage them from competitive.
Timmy B was not serious tournament and it had rewards as far as I know, so why SCS shouldn't have them too? Why do you think only serious matches should be rewarded?

The concern is that these rewards won't accomplish anything and will only benefit the few teams already at the top: including you and Lueosi. SCS isn't very dynamic with the same teams winning every week and few new joiners. It's great to see recent teams like RAWR and Why So Serious but they don't stand a chance against the established winners

You can only use one title and I doubt any players will flaunt "Skirmisher", but the distinguished elite will proudly display their "Skirmish Champion". Therefore it doesn't help SCS and only benefits the already established winners

How is that different than any competitive game out there? Of course best teams will get rewards. Every single top team or player had to practice and earn their place where they are now. If anyone wants rewards, then work for it. I played tournaments even though I knew Rydrs would take golden badge, but so what? At least I know I tried. Should we just drop rewards just because it wouldn't be fair for weaker teams? If they really care that much for rewards, maybe they can be motivated by them to get better.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was in their places (new players/team) I would be motivated and would feel great accomplishment once I would finally get that reward.
It's same as MMOs for example. You just gotta deal with it, some stuff is hard to get, if you're not willing to put enough work or you don't have time or whatever, you might never get it, it's that simple. Not everyone can have everything. You won't see me complaining about guild wars 2 and legendary weapons for example "Hey, I'm too lazy to grind for hundreds of hours to get that legendary weapon, that's not fair, I don't have as much time as hardcore players".  It's good that games have some hard to achieve goals, that's what many people keeps playing.

Quote
I see your point. This is a valid point.
Solidus has a great point here. I like titles
Yeah, I think titles are great! Personally I think a title for entry and a sweet badge for winning would be awesome! But I also understand if badges are reserved for larger tournament wins.

Offline Rareform K. Rozhkov

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2016, 09:28:12 pm »
I'm don't feel this really addresses the over all concern for the players who think SCS has become too serious with the same outcome every week and has gone away from the initial idea of it being a practice event to help teams become better not discourage them from competitive.
Timmy B was not serious tournament and it had rewards as far as I know, so why SCS shouldn't have them too? Why do you think only serious matches should be rewarded?

The concern is that these rewards won't accomplish anything and will only benefit the few teams already at the top: including you and Lueosi. SCS isn't very dynamic with the same teams winning every week and few new joiners. It's great to see recent teams like RAWR and Why So Serious but they don't stand a chance against the established winners

You can only use one title and I doubt any players will flaunt "Skirmisher", but the distinguished elite will proudly display their "Skirmish Champion". Therefore it doesn't help SCS and only benefits the already established winners

How is that different than any competitive game out there? Of course best teams will get rewards. Every single top team or player had to practice and earn their place where they are now. If anyone wants rewards, then work for it. I played tournaments even though I knew Rydrs would take golden badge, but so what? At least I know I tried. Should we just drop rewards just because it wouldn't be fair for weaker teams? If they really care that much for rewards, maybe they can be motivated by them to get better.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was in their places (new players/team) I would be motivated and would feel great accomplishment once I would finally get that reward.
It's same as MMOs for example. You just gotta deal with it, some stuff is hard to get, if you're not willing to put enough work or you don't have time or whatever, you might never get it, it's that simple. Not everyone can have everything. You won't see me complaining about guild wars 2 and legendary weapons for example "Hey, I'm too lazy to grind for hundreds of hours to get that legendary weapon, that's not fair, I don't have as much time as hardcore players".  It's good that games have some hard to achieve goals, that's what many people keeps playing.

Quote
I see your point. This is a valid point.
Solidus has a great point here. I like titles
Yeah, I think titles are great! Personally I think a title for entry and a sweet badge for winning would be awesome! But I also understand if badges are reserved for larger tournament wins.
i think that looking back on all the previous tournaments, that badges are cool. I wanna do more scs. yay titles. i want two titles plz. badges are cool thx. nvm

on a side note: how do you quote someone idk how?

P.S. lel titles. relaaax
« Last Edit: January 13, 2016, 09:31:11 pm by Rareform »

Offline Azenkompf

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2016, 09:30:01 pm »
This went downhill really fast.

Offline Dementio

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2016, 09:35:34 pm »
If the titles are supposed to bait more teams into the SCS, then there should probably be titles for multiple participations: "Super Skirmisher", for playing 5 or so times in the SCS, or something.

nhbearit, it may be what Solidusbucket already quoted, or even that adding titles as a reward is now possible and much less effort than creating a badge from scratch and so the SCS organizers thought "Why not?" or maybe both of those things. I really don't think there is a grant scheme behind it, and that is less aimed at you and more at those that act like it is.

I like this though:
They're f***** titles, guys. This is a dumb thing to throw a hissy fit over.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 06:14:34 am by Goldenglade »

Offline Thomas

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2016, 10:53:02 pm »
Skeptical.

Offline Urz

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2016, 11:20:57 pm »
Your opinions are always so insightful.

First, the SCS is the only 8-player event currently running. But we've had Aero 3 (4-player), Blood and Brass (8-player) and now Cronus (4-player) which at the current state of competitive is a good mix for all teams to play in event they enjoy. Seeing as most clans can not field 8-player teams you can't fault organizers for putting on 4-player competitions.

Just because SCS is the only 8-player event doesn't mean it should be serious. The SCS was created as a practice event. For teams to come together to practice on a reliable basis. If the organizers of SCS would like to create a serious 8-player event they can but that doesn't mean they should change the intent of the SCS. My comment doesn't portray cluelessness yet quite the opposite. I've actually spent time talking to people of the community and having members fill out surveys. Which if you would like to you can fill one out too. RIGHT HERE because I don't have a large enough ego to think that I know everything that the community thinks and will change the event based on what the communities feedback is.

Which comes to your last comment...just because the SCS has, at 1 point in time, a higher turn out than the Blood and Brass does not mean that the Blood and Brass was a failure. Not only has quite a lot of the participants personally told me they thought it was a success but 100% of the responses from the survey said they enjoyed playing in the event. The lack of turn out comes from the lack of teams able to field 8-players than it was about the event itself.

Again, there's irony in you criticizing other organizers (me, in this case) for actions which you yourself are more guilty of than anyone else. BoCA (the group for which you are a member) notoriously tried to steal SCS's time slot, with no communication to the SCS organizational team. You ignored concern from the community about the lengthy and complex format your group devised. You hid behind anonymous accounts, so we were never quite sure who was responsible for saying what.

So you want to criticize me for not listening to community feedback?

While I was actively organizing GOIO events, I was constantly reaching out to team leaders and other community members. This is evidenced not only in notes I took from those discussions, or from the threads in which I openly polled the community, but also from the changes in formats and rulesets from event to event. I was constantly learning from the advice and opinions of others, as well as my own mistakes.

(The final tournament I organized, Sky League, remains to date the largest competitive GOIO event.)

You have yet to display such self-reflection, instead choosing to imply fault with those who organize and participate in another event: the Sunday Community Skirmish (an event with which you and your group have no affiliation). You demonstrate this not only in the post I have quoted above, but also in your "survey", which includes the following question:
Quote
For Sunday Community Skirmish: Do you think it has become "too serious" and why or why not?



This sentiment comes up from time to time, with little quantification as to what "too serious" even means, why it shouldn't be so, or how to make it not so. As someone else in this thread brought up: SCS has only been as competitive as the participants want it to be. If anything, SCS's format has become more friendly to less experienced teams, with the change to double-elimination best of one series.

If players want to participate in a "less serious" event, there are such events available to them already. Iron Fork happens every week on Friday. The Dev Games every Tuesday and Thursday. Seasonal events with rolling signups such as Aerodrome and TimmyB fall onto that side of the spectrum as well.

As for 4-player signups vs 8-player signups, it should be obvious that a team of eight practicing together will be more coordinated than single ships paired together. Not to disparage 4-player events (variety is fine), but they are inherently a lower level of competition.

"But Skrimskraw said it was a practice event".

Why do you think we must hold literally to the outdated messaging of the original organizer? The event has been running for almost two years now and has changed hands multiple times. The ruleset has evolved as necessitated by the community. Lueosi has been doing a great job running SCS. Given his commitment to the game and experience in the competitive community, you'd be hard pressed to find someone more well-suited for the task.



You can make whatever justifications you want for the result of Blood and Brass. I will not, however, let the incompetence of you and the other members of BoCA poison the last true bastion of competitive Guns of Icarus.

Offline Ightrril

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2016, 11:59:31 pm »
Keep it friendly please, everyone. This is a topic notifying players about the new rewards for the SCS, not a place to argue about other competitive events and the organisation of them.

Offline Thomas

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Re: New Sunday Community Skirmish Rewards
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2016, 12:06:03 am »
The largest competitive event? Did Hephaestus League not count? As far as I'm aware, not only was it the largest, but the most successful. Other events, such as Aerodrome have also done quite well and are a bit more innovative than a standard bracket. Sky League was about as popular as the R&D Invitational.


For Blood and Brass, there was a lot of miscommunication. Due to this, the event was heavily criticized before it even got off the ground. And even then it was still fairly successful, despite some people's best efforts otherwise.




Peoples concern about the SCS are valid. It's had it's ups and downs, and there's been very few new teams getting into the mix, let alone new players. For a long time it was considered as a good starting place for new teams to get involved in competitive play. There wasn't a huge ruleset, there was no prizes to compete over, no restrictions on ships or playstyles, no long sign up period and no limited amount of teams. Even if you lose one week, you can just play again the next. A nice relatively low stress environment for people to build up their confidence for larger more organized competitive play. Over time, and especially with the most recent organization team, it's been drifting away from that.


This current attempt to give titles for participation and victory seem skewed. It doesn't address concerns about the SCS at all, but rather seeks to bribe people into participating. While it's not a bad idea for getting the SCS to liven up, it's also not a good idea. I have my own ideas of why they're doing it, but at least they're trying.