Author Topic: Hwatcha suggestion  (Read 13137 times)

Offline Solidusbucket

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Hwatcha suggestion
« on: January 08, 2016, 03:10:32 am »
Fire damage instead of explosive?

Would this make the Goldfish and Spire with Hwatcha not have enough kill power?

What about get rid of its shatter and make it Flechette?

It just feels OP despite its vulnerabilities because it can kill and disable.


Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 04:32:02 am »
Fire damage instead of explosive?

Would this make the Goldfish and Spire with Hwatcha not have enough kill power?

What about get rid of its shatter and make it Flechette?

It just feels OP despite its vulnerabilities because it can kill and disable.

You've moving too much crap around. The hwacha's slow reload time is because of the nature of the beast. It can full disable with a capable gunner. It is also however very easy to punish if you miss.

The main thing that I've had issue with is the new reload mechanic and I did mention to muse that this change has made hwacha overpowered on a double hwacha galleon.

with the reload to new ammo only needing a switch ammo command and then you leave the gun to load that ammo, you end up with a screwed up exploit where you can continually load burst on both guns while alternating.


I did suggest to muse a compromise by having the gunner only having this ability of loading ammo by quick mounting, as engineers and pilots are not role-wise geared towards gun manning. Plus it gives the gunner class greater utility.

the problem still remains but  at least the issue of gunner being basically useless on a real team needing more utility becomes less so.




I get the impression muse does not like backtracking when the playerbase calls their dumb ideas dumb. They worked their lil noggins off to create this dumb mechanic and when the player base tells them its awful they get salty and double down on how its great idea, when the player base if told on the concept phase will tell them straight up that its bad (hence why they never tell the community until after the fact WHICH IS GALLING)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:33:55 am by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline Mean Machine

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 05:25:09 am »
Two out of five heavy weapons are already flechette. don't think we should have more.
Fire damage.... meh, would basically only be useful against balloon and armor, because everything else gets or should get broken by hwacha volley, so no fire stacks possible.
I think hwacha is ok. It might seem OP, because a lot of people use it and it's easy to use. No one complains about LJ being OP for example, because it's not common to see and it's hard to shoot. But it's very powerful, has large clip, i'm pretty sure you can disable two ships with a single clip if you hit every shot, has all the ranges with ammo types, does also quite decent damage to hull etc..

Offline Fynx

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 06:52:44 am »
The main thing that I've had issue with is the new reload mechanic and I did mention to muse that this change has made hwacha overpowered on a double hwacha galleon.

Burst hwacha is overpowered on medium range, rendering heavy clip useless.
That makes it overpowered on every ship that uses a hwacha, but it's also the only thing that is overpowered about it.
Different heavy gun together with a hwacha is still prefered on the galleon. It would take more effort than it's worth, but if you doubt this, just search through the videos of competitive matches with galleons present.

I did suggest to muse a compromise by having the gunner only having this ability of loading ammo by quick mounting, as engineers and pilots are not role-wise geared towards gun manning. Plus it gives the gunner class greater utility.

the problem still remains but  at least the issue of gunner being basically useless on a real team needing more utility becomes less so.

In opposition to what Blackened tries to prove in those thousands of posts about gunners being useless, real teams bring gunners in 3 out of 4 ships on the average. Unless you want to make gunners absolutely necessary on every ship (I'm against this idea) current balance is fine.

Stamina arcs, faster reload and different ammos for guns with arming time are more important than the potential buffs and additional repair tools in the current stamina age. Tested in pubs and in comp. Rydr confirmed.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 09:09:05 am »
Changing the damage to fire would make it better because fire has good modifiers against balloon, armor, and hull with only marginally less kill power than explosive (1.3 vs 1.4). The hwatcha hasn't changed except that it's now longer range. A facefull of burst hwatcha is the same as always.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 11:23:10 am »
Changing the damage to fire would make it better because fire has good modifiers against balloon, armor, and hull with only marginally less kill power than explosive (1.3 vs 1.4). The hwatcha hasn't changed except that it's now longer range. A facefull of burst hwatcha is the same as always.

I assume this fire damage has actual chance of igniting fires as opposed to just the damage type.
So on top of quick rebuilds of the devastating shatter dmg. One also has to content for possible fires on remaining surviving parts?

Nope, definitely not seeing an issue there. Not at all.

Offline Solidusbucket

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 11:46:07 am »
All good points.

I guess it is true though. The only OP Hwatcha is when it is burst medium range. Also good point about enough flechette. Very good point about Lumberjack.

Awell. Guess I have nothing. L2P and move on I suppose. Working as intended.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 11:55:39 am »
I assume this fire damage has actual chance of igniting fires as opposed to just the damage type.
So on top of quick rebuilds of the devastating shatter dmg. One also has to content for possible fires on remaining surviving parts?

Fire damage itself doesn't cause fire stacks. The hwatcha has a small chance to start fires and switching to fire damage wouldn't affect the ignition chance. All explosive guns have a chance to start fires.

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 12:00:57 pm »
Changing damage type to fire might seem to be good idea, but it would make it op in causing even more chaos, especially in pubs with low level experience players not able to sustain good chemspray cycles.

What I would suggest instead is just nerf it classic way - limit those ridiculous gun arcs with gunner stamina and add some more reload time - make it one time balance breaker in fight with ability to reverse the fate of the battle. Currently once you're caught by good ship with hwacha it is no way to escape or shoot back. I don't like flying hwachafish - or anything meta in general. For me carrofish requires a lot more skill and coordination on the ship, but I'm starting to feel I'll get forced to adapt to meta soon, because there is no way around it. Currently there is no way Carrofish can win with Hwachafish in 1v1, maybe if you dodge enough and are generally better pilot, but still hwacha will have easier job and better arcs all the times.


If you turn damage type to fire it will be too much chaos for newer players and too much imba gun in pubs.
If you turn damage type to flechette we will get op version of heavy carronade with ridiculous arcs. Please, no.

Offline Atruejedi

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 12:02:27 pm »
I fought an enemy team of two galleons with eight hwatchas on Labyrinth last night, and not for the first time. It was a sweep for them, 450 to 0. I'd love to hear of a proper way to fight this absurdity beyond having a Goldfish, a heavy carronade, and a prayer; even then, you have to get "on their level" to attempt to capture the point. They made the initial capture, and it was over after that. We had no hope of ever capturing, let alone getting a kill in static, cramped quarters. The ubiquity of the hwatcha on nearly every Galleon I encounter is indicative of its disproportionate power and ease of use over the other heavy guns. It's even worse on King of the Hill maps.

We nearly all agree that something must change.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 02:05:33 pm »
I think a good solution would be to simply buff the Heavy Carronade back to it's original form, with or without the old Heavy Clip is up to debate. It used to be that Heavy Carro was amazing at balloon popping and DPS, whilst hwacha had okay DPS and disables, and it's effect became more useful the closer you got, which is why muse buffed the Hwacha's jitter in the first place after nerfing heavy clip, and while that was pointless, my point here is that now, the situation has turned upside down and Hwacha is the more powerful close range heavy weapon in comparison to H.Carro. Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.


What I'd propose then, is a collection of opinions that I've gathered from conversations with different vets. Revert every single nerf Heavy Carronade has recieved except the Heavy Clip nerf, return Hwacha it's old jitter, and remove the -25% clip size penalty from the Heavy Clip. I think the difference between old and current heavy clip here is that it takes a few more shots to do the same effect - but those few more shots just aren't there. You dont want to penalize players' ammo capacity just to tune their accuracy up a bit rather than making them shoot straight. And this way, Hwacha would still have a way to coexist with other guns midrange too - but without the annoyingly wide Burst rounds range, whilst Heavy Carronade could exist as a DPS and balloon popper aswell, but without the old 400m balloon pops unless you're using Loch, which is always a fair tradeoff.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2016, 03:23:48 pm »
@Guras
The only thing too powerful with gunner stamina on hwatcha is the down arc. A slower reload would be a general nerf and I don't think it would address the problem. Using all of your gunner stamina reduces a reload by 1.6 seconds, which is significant but only for the first reload. After that you won't be able to reduce a reload by nearly as much with stamina returning to full only after waiting a minute or destroying 12 components.

Hwatcha has 20 degree vertical arcs and with stamina is increased to 28. The only problem I see is the down arc which makes it difficult to escape. Reducing the down arc to 15 would make the stamina arc 21 degrees. I don't think this would be too strong a nerf.
I don't agree that "Currently there is no way Carrofish can win with Hwachafish in 1v1".

@Keb
The old heavy carronade down arc was OP. Besides the up arc and high jitter the Hcarro is pretty balanced. I don't think buffing both the hwatcha and hcarro will help balance. Hwatcha needs some nerf and the hcarro can be tweaked. I wasn't a fan of the high jitter because it mostly only effects galleon where an engi is using charged etc, but there have been many times I've been shot with heavy clip and not been popped in one clip due to the high jitter.

Heavy clip should be changed but I'm not convinced on having no penalties for it. Instead I'd prefer a small penalty such as -10% ROF. It would still have use in all the guns and I don't think a small ROF penalty would hurt too much. I'm specifically thinking of the gat and banshee. I'm not completely sure but I'd like to see the clip penalty removed and replaced with another small penalty.

@Jedi
Double hwatcha galleon is powerful on KOTH and especially desert scrap. To fight them you need to coordinate with an ally that can 1v1 a galleon. You should both engage at the same time and at different but not opposite locations. You don't want your ally coming in at the opposite side of the map because then both galleons can shoot both of you. You have plenty of time so don't engage until both you and ally are ready.

I'd bring a spire, mobula, or even pyra. For spire I like a top artemis-flare/flak and bottom burst hwatcha-lesmok gat. The combo of artemis and buffed burst hwatcha can disable a galleon from much farther than they can disable you. Spires are easy to repair and incredibly maneuverable so you can avoid fire when you need to. I recommend two buff hammers and a spanner mallet buff so you can quickly buff the bottom deck and have a mallet on balloon. Mobula is a great option because they're maneuverable and somewhat resistant to hwatchas. An excellent way to fight a galleon is to go low and draw them down then hydro up. Even with hydro the galleon will have a ton of downward momentum which gives you time. Pyra is very risky but rewarding when you pull it off. Two buff hammers and moonshine is absolutely essential. You can use the same tactic as mobula by slipping through with your fast and small profile, and luring them down then hydro up. Buffed greased gat breaks buffed galleon armor in one clip and buffed greased mortar kills in 4 seconds.

This is all assuming you're only fighting one galleon because it's impossible to win against two. The performance of your ally is just as important as yours. The only way to fight double galleon is to isolate one and exploit their weaknesses.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:28:42 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2016, 04:59:30 pm »
@Keb
The old heavy carronade down arc was OP. Besides the up arc and high jitter the Hcarro is pretty balanced. I don't think buffing both the hwatcha and hcarro will help balance. Hwatcha needs some nerf and the hcarro can be tweaked. I wasn't a fan of the high jitter because it mostly only effects galleon where an engi is using charged etc, but there have been many times I've been shot with heavy clip and not been popped in one clip due to the high jitter.

Heavy clip should be changed but I'm not convinced on having no penalties for it. Instead I'd prefer a small penalty such as -10% ROF. It would still have use in all the guns and I don't think a small ROF penalty would hurt too much. I'm specifically thinking of the gat and banshee. I'm not completely sure but I'd like to see the clip penalty removed and replaced with another small penalty.

Oh, I almost forgot about the downward arcs. Although I think it'd be fine if you simply gave it back everything it once had except the downwards. And I think -10% ROF is a good medium between having no downsides and severe downsides, and it might actually help Heavy Clip do it's job a little better as you're not spraying and praying as much, but I don't think I have a say on that until I confirm that this is how the shooting mechanics work.

I've also never said anything about buffing the hwacha, I only suggested it's jitter to return to how it always was before the february patch.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 05:20:31 pm »
I would like it, if the Hwacha would get a reduction in AoE, so Burst Rounds in medium range are less effective and have it make use of some projectile expansion to make long range-ing with the not so effective heavy clip, more effective. Or if it should be a purely close range oriented gun, then increasing the jitter back to its previous value works too, I guess.

Heavy Carronade is fine in my opinion, maybe a slight reduction in jitter wouldn't hurt.

Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.

Heavy guns are not about the dps, they are about doing their job quicker than the light guns, which results in doing their job within one clip. The Heavy Carronade destroys a balloon in one clip, against a Pyramidion it is a bit troublesome to manage it, but that is one of two strengths that ship has so that's ok, and Hwacha can destroy all visible guns and engines, and some more close to those visible ones within one clip with ease in close range, even if it gets nerfed, because a nerf shouldn't stop a gun from doing what it is supposed to do.

The Heavy Carronade, even after the nerf, can single-handedly kill a ship and remove a ship from a fight with a single Lochnagar shot. Two Heavy Carronade on one side of a Galleon can destroy the enemy balloon and armor in mere seconds. I don't want to see more damage from that gun.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 05:22:23 pm by Dementio »

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Hwatcha suggestion
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 06:29:55 pm »
I would like it, if the Hwacha would get a reduction in AoE, so Burst Rounds in medium range are less effective and have it make use of some projectile expansion to make long range-ing with the not so effective heavy clip, more effective. Or if it should be a purely close range oriented gun, then increasing the jitter back to its previous value works too, I guess.

Heavy Carronade is fine in my opinion, maybe a slight reduction in jitter wouldn't hurt.

Now if you nerf Hwacha's effectiveness in any way, what you have then is 2 weaker heavy weapons and you've officially ruined close range heavy gun meta in a sense by making it unable to deal dps on it's own and unable to provide the desired effect with ease. So before you give any nerfs to the Hwacha you'll have to buff H.Carro.

Heavy guns are not about the dps, they are about doing their job quicker than the light guns, which results in doing their job within one clip. The Heavy Carronade destroys a balloon in one clip, against a Pyramidion it is a bit troublesome to manage it, but that is one of two strengths that ship has so that's ok, and Hwacha can destroy all visible guns and engines, and some more close to those visible ones within one clip with ease in close range, even if it gets nerfed, because a nerf shouldn't stop a gun from doing what it is supposed to do.

The Heavy Carronade, even after the nerf, can single-handedly kill a ship and remove a ship from a fight with a single Lochnagar shot. Two Heavy Carronade on one side of a Galleon can destroy the enemy balloon and armor in mere seconds. I don't want to see more damage from that gun.

But doing a job with ease is the same as doing it quicker than the light guns, because you dont need as many conditions to do it. With the old hwacha you had to be closer than you were now to get the same effect you did today at midrange, now that you can do that at midrange, the conditions for doing it's job in one clip is much more forgiving and therefore can be used more effectively under pressure. Heavy Carronade on the other hand requires a gimmicky ammo to do the same thing it used to do. The difference is that Heavy Clip made it much easier to aim, rotate and allowed it to disable without having to commit everything to once shot. And in a world of no official piercing-heavy weapons, they need to be able to do atleast slightly relevant dps. It's odd that a Galleon, a ship with a broadside full of what is allegedly heavy firepower, is beaten in kill time by anything with a Gat-Mortar/Any explosive in the correct situation on it. I'd argue that Heavy guns retaining some sort of dps against either armor or hull is beneficial for the game. Fish cant use it as much because they're mainly about using it's disable aspect, Spire gets something to outdps mobulas with so that it can actually be called a glass cannon when there's a ship that can pull off every combo the Spire can save for the heavy guns, with much better survivability. And galleon, refer to what I said about gat mortar.