Author Topic: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...  (Read 138212 times)

Offline Newbluud

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #150 on: March 05, 2016, 07:01:32 am »
Well, do the ends really justify the means here? 

I get that people are sick of novices, and i understand that its a problem, but why is every solution we come up with, every idea we propose, go back to the idea that novices are terrible people with the intent the screw everyone over.

Now, I'm not sure how much sway my word will have here, as I'm far lower level than other's who are posting on this thread. but i do wish to caution everyone.  The last thing this game needs is a Vet elitism to counter novice ignorance.

Just my thoughts.
Novices are incredibly frustrating, and jokes about them are funny in my book. Some of them are toxic to boot.

However, I agree with you. This game is hard to keep up with when you are new and once you have a couple of thousand matches, so many things become second nature that explaining things to new people seems like we are making simple requests to us, but said requests are hard to keep track of for someone who is also trying to enjoy a new game. I also think the novice hate makes this community distinctly less "great" than it professes to be.

That being said, I'm not saint. I tend to explain mistakes they made and keep my frustration bottled up. Far too often I see terrible sportsmanship and outright maliciousness from vets that should know better. I suppose it's unavoidable in a game so reliant on a team to work together.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #151 on: March 05, 2016, 08:53:55 am »
Well, do the ends really justify the means here? 

I get that people are sick of novices, and i understand that its a problem, but why is every solution we come up with, every idea we propose, go back to the idea that novices are terrible people with the intent the screw everyone over.

Now, I'm not sure how much sway my word will have here, as I'm far lower level than other's who are posting on this thread. but i do wish to caution everyone.  The last thing this game needs is a Vet elitism to counter novice ignorance.

Just my thoughts.

Your level does not effect your opinion on this, and I believe your opinion on this can be a real eye opener, at least it is for me..

Yes Novices can be frustrating, but equally if we create barriers and restrictions it'll do more damage to player retention than it would help...

Offline The Djinn

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #152 on: March 05, 2016, 09:18:44 am »
Yes Novices can be frustrating, but equally if we create barriers and restrictions it'll do more damage to player retention than it would help...

Agreed.

On the specific subject of this thread -- I'd have never gotten into this game in the first place if I had been restricted from piloting. Gunning and Engineering are fun and all, but I find piloting is where my interests lie, and the role that brings gameplay I can't get elsewhere. It was the role that cemented GoI as a game I'd like to keep playing.

Offline Red-Xiii

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #153 on: March 05, 2016, 01:44:18 pm »
Yes Novices can be frustrating, but equally if we create barriers and restrictions it'll do more damage to player retention than it would help...

Agreed.

On the specific subject of this thread -- I'd have never gotten into this game in the first place if I had been restricted from piloting. Gunning and Engineering are fun and all, but I find piloting is where my interests lie, and the role that brings gameplay I can't get elsewhere. It was the role that cemented GoI as a game I'd like to keep playing.

I was one "bitching" captain away from quitting this game early on.  I was going to try one more match.  The ONLY thing that kept me around was [SAC] Gully Man.  He made it quite obvious that not all captains are assholes and can actually teach.  From then on I decided to ignore the ranting vets and learn on my own and  from the helpful pilots.  Alot of novices are not so lucky as I. 

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #154 on: March 06, 2016, 12:48:37 pm »
I'm so tired of teaching in this game. Because I actually CARE about this game, I'm compelled to teach new players whenever they're willing to listen... no matter how god damn awful and ignorant they are... but the problem is I AM TEACHING THEM THE MOST BASIC AND RUDIMENTARY MECHANICS OF THIS GAME OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I am tired of it! Where are the tutorials, Muse! Where!? I'm at my wit's end. Seriously. I am tired of losing games over and over again as I try to foster and improve the player base when, to me, it appears that Muse barely cares about expanding and growing and maintaining the community. The player base should be the absolute priority in this game... and I increasingly am asking myself why I care to help this game when others, including the developers, care so much less, if at all.

Please let me be the first to say: Welcome to the life of a vet.

This. <3
I was so proud to watch Kamoba grow from naive idealist CA to a true man; a sarky, bitter vet. Now we can welcome truejedi as a member of our fucked-up patchwork family.

inb4 you are literally Hitler becuase you don't want to teach players, you don't care about the game, yadda yadda yadda, lgbt, yadda yadda, gluten, yadda, elitist shitlord. Yadda.

I have very mixed feelings. Because on one hand, devs are great, you can talk to them during fireside, you can mail them and discuss the game and even you can kick their asses in their own game if you manage. They are very nice people with, in some ways at least, very good approach. On the other hand I think they have overestimated their capabilities and resources and taking care of Alliance and Skirmnish (also remembering about the money) is just too much for them; it ends up with neglecting Skirmnish. I feel that just because there is very crystalised hardcore vet community of people who will simply play GOIO (almost) no matter what - devs take vets (and players) for granted. As if they don't feel the need to lure in some new players; if some people will stay after sales - good, if not - meh, we still have vet community.

There is also a great ideological division, I'd say. There is "vets should help new players" camp and there is "fuck off and let me play like a regular player" camp.

To leave the domain of my feelings and enter the domain of meritoric discussion, this is no easy problem to solve. Becuase for now it's just vicious circle:
0. Playerbase is low
1. New players enter the game
2. They learn based on bad tutorials, or they don't learn at all
3. Because of point 0 they end up playing with vets
4. Vets are pissed
5. Noobs are pissed
6. Some vets leave
7. Most noobs leave
8. Sale, go back to the point 0.
And this is of course the tip of the iceberg which is the gameplay problem of players not wanting to stay for longer than those 500 matches (this is very loose border, some could argue that this may be even 400 or 300 matches). And no, this cannot be argued by the "oh well, goio just isn't for everyone" or "well we're so indie". No, every sale we see big players influx (up to 4k simultaniously playing in one sale) and than gradual decline of playerbase back to the veteran backbone. You can ask many dedicated players and many of them will give you various answers for why it may be happening - some will point out small amount of content, some the optimalisation issues (playing on 20fps is a huge turn-off, I know what I'm talking about, and funny thing is devs don't seem to care, hence "800x600 20fps = playable, also 2015" joke), some the small tactical variety (8 ammo types but every gun has 1-2 valid options), some the dull gameplay (because hitting things with mallet isn't that exciting for most of people) and some other problems which I may not have included here. The problem of noobs is the problem of vets being forced to play with noobs over and over and over again, because most of them leave anyway, so the teaching and the frustration of both sides starts again. Teaching noobs is Sisyphus's work. There are many who tried to actually dedicate their time to teach new players (the most notable example would be nanoduckling I think, and some if not most CA's/teachers) - and they soon enough reach their limit and snap. All I've written in this post is common knowledge among vets, I think, but perhaps not among the devs.

So, to sum up somehow, we're in stalemate. Devs don't have the will and/or resources to make the game better in significant enough way. They are trying, yes, but there is only so much they can do. And we, vets,  will keep playing, making our way through for SOME pleasant experience, through the power of Block and Report.

Edit: I understand that devs have decided on a crazy gambit, that their new game is going to be so WOW, so exciting, so great that all of the current fanbase will buy it immediately and new people will appear in both Alliance and Skirmnish. Sorry to put it that way but wasn't GOIO supposed to be such a good game too? When Alliance is going to be released, 2018? 2019? Is there going to be enough playerbase left to actually care? Or is it some kind of darwinist nightmare, weak individuals must perish and the Brave New World of GOIO Alliance will be born? :D Will some of us be the Moseses of GOIO - we will see the Promised Land but not enter it?
The point is - will the remaining playerbase survive until Alliance is released and, hopefully, save this game?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 01:19:22 pm by Mr.Disaster »

Offline The Djinn

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #155 on: March 06, 2016, 03:16:14 pm »
Mr.Disaster I hope Alliance brings in great things and great players for Skirmish...but as someone who isn't especially interested in Alliance as a game mode, I'm not super convinced it's the solution, as I suspect it may just fragment the playerbase more.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #156 on: March 06, 2016, 04:01:40 pm »
Mr.Disaster I hope Alliance brings in great things and great players for Skirmish...but as someone who isn't especially interested in Alliance as a game mode, I'm not super convinced it's the solution, as I suspect it may just fragment the playerbase more.

Yeah, that's a whole new problem. Since GOIO is a multiplayer only game you can say that it's developer's responsibility* to the customer to provide a playerbase to play with, usually via content updates/add-ons, community support (events, tournaments), marketing and pricing. Nowadays developer, especially for multiplayer games, is expected (although not really obliged) to provide extra content after the game release, for how long - it depends on the game and developer, but either for as long to fit production cycle (i.e. until release of the new game, like in BF or CoD series, although those games have also single player functionality) or as long as possible to maintain profits.
So you can wonder whether you see GOIO as a complete game that doesn't require often updates, many people will argue otherwise, especially given very low playerbase (and some of the supposed reasons for it).
For players who only have Skirmish this may seem like a bad developer practice - to neglect** current game (that at least for some players still requires attention and new content, delicately speaking) in order to start and run a new project (that they can earn money*** from). Especially given some desperate calls on the forum in the spirit of "We can pay you, but please do some additional content!".
Interesting example for instance is the fact stated by one of the devs, that money coming from skirmnish shop is enough to pay for the art team. But that art team isn't really working on skirmnish stuff, but mostly on Alliance stuff. Of course the developers can do whatever they want with their money, of course... but given the state of the game skirmnish-only players may not be happy with such state of affairs****.
I don't want to be over-negative because I truly believe that Muse are trying to be as fair- and work as hard as they can, but they are the ones who have put themselves and us in such situation.
I also realise that the point of Alliance isn't some people out of the Moon, but us, GOIO fanbase, but many of us***** have chosen not to buy Alliance for various reasons, and those people have only lost from this, although you may argue that such situation is unavoidable one way or another.

* Yes, fellas, this is a responsibility of the DEVELOPER, not player, not vet, developer.

** Because I think most of us feels that Skirmish is neglected in order to enable working on Alliance

*** We have good reasons to believe that Muse Games are good guys, I am not accusing them of anything, just showing how it may look from the distance

**** cough MAPS cough

***** I'm not in this group, but I don't care for Alliance that much at the moment
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 04:08:36 pm by Mr.Disaster »

Offline ZnC

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #157 on: March 06, 2016, 04:21:26 pm »
ANYWAY.

I wanted to give an update. On Fireside they said matchmaker will restrict novices from searching as a pilot.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #158 on: March 06, 2016, 04:47:10 pm »
ANYWAY.

I wanted to give an update. On Fireside they said matchmaker will restrict novices from searching as a pilot.

Urgh. That would really upset me if I were a novice pilot.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #159 on: March 06, 2016, 05:00:54 pm »
I wanted to give an update. On Fireside they said matchmaker will restrict novices from searching as a pilot.

Urgh. That would really upset me if I were a novice pilot.

They're still free to play novice matches

Offline The Djinn

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #160 on: March 06, 2016, 05:02:08 pm »
I wanted to give an update. On Fireside they said matchmaker will restrict novices from searching as a pilot.

Urgh. That would really upset me if I were a novice pilot.

They're still free to play novice matches

Ah. Good point. Honestly forgot about those. Concern averted.

Offline ZnC

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #161 on: March 06, 2016, 05:06:52 pm »
Novice pilots can also still crew form and search normal matches as a pilot, or swap to the pilot slot in lobby.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #162 on: March 06, 2016, 06:51:40 pm »
Assuming MM does not put them in normal lobby X time in queue...

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #163 on: March 07, 2016, 07:36:14 am »
Because as we all know ALL HAIL MATCHMAKER.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: I am begging, please add minimum level requirements to pilot...
« Reply #164 on: March 07, 2016, 08:02:14 am »
Because as we all know ALL HAIL MATCHMAKER.
*Salutes.*