Author Topic: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm  (Read 69284 times)

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2015, 02:07:40 pm »
The pyra currently lacks purpose and role. The hard nerf was needed but being hit on all sides means it just lacks reason for existing.

Its not a good charge brawl or ram ship(no hull or acceleration), it can't be a good medium range zoner (no armor to survive long enough for backing out), it can't use its side weapons independently (no turn skill).

These are all roles it used to fill exceptionally. It now can't really do any of these roles slightly. There are different ways to bring back the pyra and thats up for plenty of debate. I'm with Skies, give it some good acceleration and make it a zippy charger.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2015, 02:09:00 pm »
Out of curiosity (I've been out of the game for over a year, and only very recently back in), what would thoughts be about a Pyra wit better angles on the side guns?

I think raising the ability to land 2-3 weapons on the port side might raise the utility of the ship in skilled hands, while not making it really any more powerful in pub matches where the side guns are more of an afterthought.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2015, 04:54:52 pm »
what would thoughts be about a Pyra wit better angles on the side guns?

Well, we already have a ship like that.. The Mobula. What causes an issue with the current state of the Pyra, isn't gun arcs so much as survivability.. It takes time to get into range, and normally, the Pyra is destroyed before it can really get into close range. To be effective a Pyra needs to be able to survive long enough to get into range and do it's damage. The simplest two ways to achieve this would be making the Pyra be able to take more hits (so it can spend more time getting shot at without blowing up)  or make it faster (so it spends less time getting shot at in the first place).

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2015, 05:04:21 pm »
The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 05:32:52 pm »
The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.

I mean, I agree: that's the Pyra I fell in love with. But that's a hard balance to hit for low-level play where that's almost all people do with ANY ship.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 05:52:07 pm »
The pyra should be good at ramming/ charging and nothing else.

I mean, I agree: that's the Pyra I fell in love with. But that's a hard balance to hit for low-level play where that's almost all people do with ANY ship.

That is the game's problem for evidently not encouraging players enough to put thought into their actions. And if they're not doing that then I dont think they really deserve to win over a charging pyra. If they are however, they're rewarded with easy kills. Or every novice match could become a pyramidion fest and breed hundreds of metamidion pilots who will immediately get their arses handed to them by better players with harder, better ships and learn to move onto more skill indexed strategies.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2015, 06:40:03 pm »
... every novice match could become a pyramidion fest and breed hundreds of metamidion pilots who will immediately get their arses handed to them by better players with harder, better ships...

While I don't agree with your statement. At least they'd be playing, and surely at least a few of them would go on to learn the rest of the game. The game seems to be actually pretty terrible at indoctrinating new players as is. If a Pyramidion fest is what it would take to get them invested in the game long enough for me to teach them what's what, then I'd be up for it.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2015, 07:44:37 pm »
I think just about everyone agrees the pyra needed a nerf, but it was taken a little far. Having more speed would make it a nice glass cannon, being able to pack a punch and keep up with the other ships. Right now it's just basic target practice.

Ah... I remember the days when a spire was a priority target.
But these days I almost always choose the pyra over the spire.

1. its ability to dodge is laughable. Its slow like a junker but because of the junker's thin hull (and superior armour) profile you need to be careful on where to aim. But a Pyra? Ha! Shoot that fattie because it has no hull and dies in seconds and it can't attempt to defend itself when hit on a blind side.
2. a charging pyra is effective if it gets close. Thats a big if. Because of its speed most mid range builds destroy it before a gat mortar can do any real damage. Gone are the days when a charging pyra was you staring at death itself.

A greater forward velocity will definitely be a step forward. You can fine tune the balance of everything else afterwards but giving back the pyra's ability to close distance and apply appropriate pressure is a definite must. Let the arrow fly true dammit.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2015, 12:28:43 am »
Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting to say the least. And for the tip box - "Place mines in front of charging enemies" after all the faster you go the harder it is to dodge them.

Offline Dementio

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2015, 04:48:41 am »
Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting

I would test that.

Offline Thomas

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2015, 06:24:56 pm »
Increasing the pyramidions top speed to squid level but retaining the current acceleration etc would be interesting to say the least. And for the tip box - "Place mines in front of charging enemies" after all the faster you go the harder it is to dodge them.


That would be pretty interesting. It'd take some effort to get up to speed, and after that it'd be incredibly hard to stop (with the poor acceleration).

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2015, 06:44:12 pm »
A fundamental problem with the Pyra is the weight. It is stupidly heavy for being the second smallest ship in the game. A Galleon should not bounce off a Pyra. This is mainly because of everyone's desire for it to be a ram happy ship 'cause its got a pointy end. A new 'bonus damage for hitting a ship with this part of your ship' must be added to fix this problem. Keep the ram, lose the weight.

A second fundamental problem is that it is too easy to engineer to keep it in top maneuvering from. The solution, sadly, was to reduce the top maneuvering abilities and ability to take much damage. That is the only solution possible adjusting just numbers. My solution to this is not to change the numbers, but to change the ship. Make another catwalk (like the front) over the rear engine. Put two more small engines up there, further out than than the ones below. Attach them directly to the 'ramming' framework instead of the main hull. Combined with the other engines, your ship will be fast, nimble, with pretty fast turning ability. However, they are obviously much harder to maintain. Lose them and you are reduced to the current Pyra. On a burn in, you would be required to keep two engineers on engines (like most other ships). Once in battle, those engines will start to go neglected. This would put it on a more level playing field with the other ships.

Not sure why the hwacha was reduced to 2 degrees instead of 1 with no other changes. I had suggested the nerf to Heavy along with a buff by removing the ammo reduction, a slight damage increase, and a 1 degree reduction in hwacha jitter because people would complain about not having laser missiles anymore. Perhaps I should send another email.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2015, 11:33:32 pm »
My solution to this is not to change the numbers, but to change the ship. Make another catwalk (like the front) over the rear engine. Put two more small engines up there, further out than than the ones below. Attach them directly to the 'ramming' framework instead of the main hull. Combined with the other engines, your ship will be fast, nimble, with pretty fast turning ability.

I'm pretty sure Muse won't be changing ship models anytime soon, as such, this is not a serious solution. Even if they were willing to put in the work to basically make a new ship, there are definitely other ships for them to work on. Say, the Mobula, or the Spire, or even just by making a new ship. You've been playing this game for a while Richard, you should try to come up with something Muse could actually do. While I can't speak for anyone else here, I'd certainly be interested in what you think would be a workable solution.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2015, 02:25:31 am »
Besides its small size I don't think the pyra is overly-heavy. It weighs 200 compared to spire/goldfish at 150 and galleon at 320. A full speed goldfish does 1/3 more ram damage than a full speed pyra. Rams are primarily not for damage! They're for control and the extra weight helps.

Offline Thomas

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Re: "What's wrong with the Pyramidion? What's wrong with the Hwacha?" - Awkm
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2015, 02:31:12 am »
If they were willing to change ships, and they might be open to it in a very minor way, I'd recommend just putting something directly in the back of the ship between the engines. Like some big barrels or crates, preventing players from doing a full circuit and potentially stopping them from hitting the top engine from underneath. Now it doesn't need the nerfs as much because it's harder to keep everything repaired. The change itself wouldn't require too much extra effort either, which is a nice bonus.