Author Topic: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker  (Read 40726 times)

Offline Lieutenant Noir

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2015, 09:02:38 am »
Be it the reign of Double Merc Sniper play to Quick Gat/Mortar kills to Heavy Carros to Multi-range Disable
The nature of this game relies on checks and Balances that work towards the uniqueness of what each ship can bring in a fight
I think this game suffers very big nerfs that don't take into account the severity of changes they entail. Big nerfs like those were good when the Game at the start was very imbalanced but now the game is becoming more balanced due to previous changes.
-Once a build/style/ship gets nerfed, players retreat to the playstyle that is the lesser nerfed and seems to be the next imbalanced factor (something that requires less risk but high reward).
-I don't think Nerfs are in their right, necessarily bad. I just think that we have had balances that went a little too far than it should have.
-If all we do is Buff, then everything becomes overpowered and that makes a fairly boring game. (Unless it is a game that sacrifices Balance for Variety like Hearthstone or Duck game)
-The more balancing patches the game takes, the more the game should become balanced and so people will retreat to the aspects that seem less balanced. The process goes over and over again as more patches continue, making the game more and more balanced along the way.





-When I suggested the change to the Mobula I looked into its ship design, its current stats, its strengths and weaknesses, as well as role it serves in combat. I also look into how each of those play towards Firepower, Mobility, and Tank-ability. I watch a lot of competitive play of the Mobula as well as use it a lot. I notice a lot of mistakes that both me and other pilots make that I think should be punished rather than forgiven considering those four factors.
-I don't just make these suggestions because I think the presence of a certain aspect makes the game imbalanced. If that's all I said then I would be suggesting everything about the ship be nerfed (Kinda like what has happened to the Pyra.... poor pyra).
-I don't want the Mobula to become another Pyra but I do think it shouldn't have that much Turn speed considering those four factors.

-I also took this approach to the Junker. My main problems were more about its ship design and how it plays into its stats and play-style. I think having that much exposure to components and balloon makes it a very bad slow/tanky/Jack-of-all-Trades.

Honestly I think that junkers and galleons are very strong ships, but they might be the hardest to master.

-My suggestions were never about how the Junker was underused. My suggestions were about problems I had with it concerning its ship design and stats that configure it towards a certain style of play that I think doesn't coordinate very well. My suggestions were to make a style of play more centered around its ship design by changing its stats.
-Look below

I think people have experimented for a long time and we have seen Junkers in competitive games none the less. My problem isn’t regarding putting Junkers in competitive (although it might lead to that), my issue is in how the ship design of the Junker doesn’t make it very versatile or effective in many different situations in it’s current state.

I do agree that the nature of disables are what make the Junker as ineffective as it is. I will say though... a combination of slow speed and exposed components make disables much easier to hit and make the ship much more vulnerable to future disables.
This is bad for the Junker because the damage modifier from disable weapons will dig even faster into the hull once a component breaks, making that "Second highest armor in the game" useless.
I’m getting a little sick of having to repeat myself so please just read my previously mentioned problems with the current Junker.

-I really like comparing the Junker to the Squid because I think the way the Squid ship is designed is very similar to the Junker. They both have very close components to make it easier to engineer on, very exposed components, and a big balloon at the top.
-I think we see the success of the Squid because it has the maneuverability to nullify it's weaknesses in balloon, hull, engines, and gun exposure as well as counter many builds. I wanted to make the Junker more like the Squid in that it wouldn’t be as fast but have more firepower. I also wanted to decrease it's armor to encourage the play-style of outmaneuvering enemy ships much like the squid.

And

Also I want to say that I don't like how the Junker is configured towards Long range play. Mainly because it has very exposed components and a big balloon which means a ship like that staying still is a ridiculously easy target. I mentioned some of the problems in disabling in a previous post.

-I do agree that the game is very inconsistent and just because something is considered counter-able by another build, doesn't necessarily mean the result will be as you expect. There are a lot of factors to take into account and not every thing will be ideal.
-A ship that is considered countered will be more likely to be countered. I think the Junker is considered counter-able by many builds for very obvious reasons concerning how it is shaped and how it plays into its style of play.
-You can bring the Junker all you want and play it without regard to the map or enemy ship and you will still win matches regardless.
-Play the Junker enough and you will realize its strengths and weaknesses
-We have all played the Junker for a very very long time and we all seem to know its many weaknesses and strengths
-It can still surprise us... but I really don't think that it should only be surprising us

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2015, 06:48:51 pm »
After playing what was possibly the most one sided massacre i have ever participated in flying a well buffed junker I'm developing a suspicion that fast junker would be one of the most OP things ever to be included into the game. More experienced opponents might have been able to keep up but this was only the result of the buffkit, I dread to think of stat buff + buffkit.

As an aside how do people prefer to run buffs on their junker? I'm thinking of running buff engineer 'gunner' for the hull and main engine and pilot buff for the balloon.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2015, 08:02:09 pm »
The meta buff setup is wrench buff chem up top, spanner mallet chem front, spanner mallet buff bottom. So the gunner is on bottom with spanner mallet buff and they buff the engine, guns, and hull. Main engi is on front and in charge of hull and bottom chems, it's quick to run down and chem everything. The wrench buff is up top and the advent of stamina means it's more viable for the main engi to come up and mallet balloon when not directly in combat. The pilot is in charge of balloon repairs with their wrench.

In some tanking situations the gunner comes up top to work together to repair and buff balloon. Wrench buff never goes to hull and main engi can't leave an unprotected hull. An experienced pilot can help repair engines, guns, and even shoot.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 08:16:11 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2015, 08:51:12 pm »
Pilot buff is definitely tempting but fails for two reasons.

1. The pilot should be doing too much to be able to buff.

2. Pipe for the balloon is essential for both repairs and rebuilds. Top deck is just way to much work for just one engineer be they standard or buff.


Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2015, 03:57:15 am »
I've always done spanner as a  pilot for galleon and junker. I'm not saying it's better, but I prefer to get that balloon repaired as fast as possible while the mallet is on it's way to it. Sammy just out of curiosity (since we both competed in junkers extensively) what do you prefer in the wrench?

After playing what was possibly the most one sided massacre i have ever participated in flying a well buffed junker I'm developing a suspicion that fast junker would be one of the most OP things ever to be included into the game. More experienced opponents might have been able to keep up but this was only the result of the buffkit, I dread to think of stat buff + buffkit.

As an aside how do people prefer to run buffs on their junker? I'm thinking of running buff engineer 'gunner' for the hull and main engine and pilot buff for the balloon.

I've always ran buff/ext/wrench on top deck if I'm left side sniping, main engineer front artemis, with a right side brawl switch of the buffgineer to the mortar and the main engineer running the top deck.

Back in the dizzay I would be a main engineer setup myself to maximize sniping, but it is much harder to pull off engineer pilot these days.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2015, 11:45:22 am »
Spanner doesn't rebuild that much faster and it's the pilot's job to repair balloon. When the engis are shooting you work on the balloon.

Offline Lieutenant Noir

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2015, 08:25:18 am »
Ugh being sick is horrible, can't get anything done

After playing what was possibly the most one sided massacre i have ever participated in flying a well buffed junker I'm developing a suspicion that fast junker would be one of the most OP things ever to be included into the game. More experienced opponents might have been able to keep up but this was only the result of the buffkit, I dread to think of stat buff + buffkit.

Do keep in mind that I wanted to make the Fast Junker have sh*t armor.
Basically if a pilot didn't outmaneuver enough, it would be eaten alive by a single Gat-Banshee/ Hwatcha/ Artemis/ Lumberjack/ etc
p:

As an aside how do people prefer to run buffs on their junker? I'm thinking of running buff engineer 'gunner' for the hull and main engine and pilot buff for the balloon.

Back when I used to play seriously and have a Mic,
-I used to run double buffs on Bottom and Top Deck w/ Main kit on hull
-As a Pilot I would bring a wrench because I tended to accidentally miss time a rebuild for a repair with a spanner on Junker balloon more often
-Also I kinda liked to be able to repair because I wanted engis on guns being buffed/shooting constantly (that was hard to do with a damaged balloon while enemies were dropping only just below arcs).
-I also tended to find that it wasn't that far of a distance for the Bottom Deck Engi to reach the hull (Would just top up buff on hull -> run down and Top up buff on gun).

-I've seen some guys replace the Main kit on Hull for Main kit Buff but I just like the consistency and safety of a good old Main Kit
-Didn't even want a 24/7 Buffed Trifecta anyway 3_3

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2015, 03:32:44 pm »
After playing what was possibly the most one sided massacre i have ever participated in flying a well buffed junker I'm developing a suspicion that fast junker would be one of the most OP things ever to be included into the game. More experienced opponents might have been able to keep up but this was only the result of the buffkit, I dread to think of stat buff + buffkit.

Do keep in mind that I wanted to make the Fast Junker have sh*t armor.
Basically if a pilot didn't outmaneuver enough, it would be eaten alive by a single Gat-Banshee/ Hwatcha/ Artemis/ Lumberjack/ etc
p:

Problem is if it can move fast enough to avoid arcs it can bring a gat-mortar side into arc far too easily and unlike the squid has no need to maneuver between the two gun arcs and can bring another 3 guns worth of options.

Offline Lieutenant Noir

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2015, 03:19:04 am »
After playing what was possibly the most one sided massacre i have ever participated in flying a well buffed junker I'm developing a suspicion that fast junker would be one of the most OP things ever to be included into the game. More experienced opponents might have been able to keep up but this was only the result of the buffkit, I dread to think of stat buff + buffkit.

Do keep in mind that I wanted to make the Fast Junker have sh*t armor.
Basically if a pilot didn't outmaneuver enough, it would be eaten alive by a single Gat-Banshee/ Hwatcha/ Artemis/ Lumberjack/ etc
p:

Problem is if it can move fast enough to avoid arcs it can bring a gat-mortar side into arc far too easily and unlike the squid has no need to maneuver between the two gun arcs and can bring another 3 guns worth of options.

How maneuverability are we talking here?  :-\
-The reason the Squid can outmaneuver/Avoid Arcs so easily is because of the combination of high Turning/Forward/Vertical (Not that much) acceleration
Another aspect is that the Squid has high Top speed and so will be more able to get in close range engagements
-The Squid is like an Acceleration God. With the Junker you would still to an extent be more reliant on firepower rather than maneuverability but it would have that High Top speed to be in situations where you would be able to Brawl quicker.
-If you were to compare maneuverability, it would be similar to a Goldfish and how the Goldfish deals with this is that it depends on the firepower of its heavy gun.
-It would be a goldfish that sacrifices vertical acceleration for more turning and forward acceleration (For more capabilities in circling)
Only this time it has even less survivability with same armor but less health in exchange for the firepower of a Trifecta


I should really elaborate on what I mean by Sh*t armor
-A full greased Banshee clip can pull off 540 damage to Hull health and so you would be able to kill a Junker in one armor break relatively easily considering how hard it is to escape from a Banshee (If you decrease it's armor to around 400 it would break that armor like butter through a Hot knife).
-If we look at a scenario where two enemies are doing nothing but sticking together and covering each other, a Junker would be Skittled because focus fire from basically only one ship would significantly increase its Skittleability.
It would need to be more reliant on its ally considering its low survivability.

-Also in this scenario, you wouldn't be dependent on that High Armor to tank while you're always in Gat/Mortar Arc. Considering the firepower of Gat/Mortar, you don't kill the enemy fast enough to compensate for the risk of breaking such low Armor.... I think...
-You would have to depend on firepower that reduces the damage potential of the enemy ship \o_ Disable _o/
-As a bonus, the Disabling capabilities would also assist in out-maneuverability because it would decrease the Maneuverability of the enemy ship (I need a Thesaurus).
-I'm not saying you wouldn't bring Gat/Mort  :-\, but you would only bring it when you have a really good ally or a really good Pub stomp

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2015, 04:59:40 am »
Comparing - junker:squid
Top speed - 26 : 47
Forward Acc. - 4.3 : 6.6  - Same band as spire and mobula
Top Turn - 16 : 19       - Junker is second only to squid as is
Turn Acc. - 15 : 20     - Also second only to squid
Vert. Acc. - 3 : 4     - Behind fish and spire also

In the horizontal plane the junker is already the second most maneuverable ship and the squid is first simply because it needs it to survive. Its vertical acceleration is tolerable but it really suffers the top speed.
The main problem i can see with it is that the mobula and spire can both match it in ranged firepower and back away from any attempt to close range:
Backwards spire/mob speed - 14m/s (19.6m/s if I'm right about thrust etc mechanics)
Junker closing speed - 12m/s but only if you go directly forwards, even if your guns have a range disadvantage of only 120m 10s of 1 gun vs 3 will kill you.
Trying to bring a side banshee into arc as a second gun - 30 deg sideways means 87% effective speed - 9.6m/s (maybe 3m/s)
To get a gatling - 77% - 8m/s (maybe 0.4m/s).

I certainly agree the junker could use a buff to top speed but i don't think the same/buffed turning/acc/vertical acc along with 400/500 armor/hull is the way to go. IMO the spire already takes glass cannon too far with 400/950 and i don't want to see the junker join or exceed it. I'd rather see it gain top speed with a trade off of turning to keep its close maneuverability about the same.

Silly thought experiment:
400/500 junker vs poon squid
Charged poon deals 178 armor damage - 222 left
222 armor deals 500 balloon damage when rammed - 700 squid balloon left
400 hull deals 480 balloon damage when rammed - 220 squid balloon left and junker is dead


Edit:
Did a quick test with a rangefinder in sandbox, with a spire going full throttle backwards a target took 20s to recede from 600m to 1000m. 400m/20s = 20m/s so 50% thrust backwards means 70% speed or so. As from above this is really bad for the junker.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 05:11:34 am by Daft Loon »

Offline Lieutenant Noir

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2015, 07:41:46 am »
Damn, wish I could change the title to add Spire as well
This makes me advocate Byron's Idea of switching the Stats of the Spire and the Junker even more.

-The Junker would take the role of being a Glass Cannon with armor, while also having a decrease in turning acceleration for increased Vertical and Top speed.
-This way, having the Hull Engineer off the guns wouldn't hurt it's overall firepower as much considering the bulk of the Junkers firepower comes from it's broad sides.
-I would condone having higher Top speed considering you still would have the problem of big hit-boxes on the Balloon as well as gun exposure. Also, the fact that it would have decreased forward mobility while having to turn to get its side guns in arc like you mentioned before.

-The Spire would essentially become a Turret with high Turning acceleration and armor for low Top speed and vertical mobility.
-I would say the decreased Top speed wouldn't hurt the Spire as much considering it has a light and Heavy gun pointing forward.
-The Increased Armor would also make the Hull engineer focus more on shooting than repairs which means that a few more Light guns would be shooting more frequently than usual.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2015, 08:05:18 am »
^

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Suggestions for the Mobula and Junker
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2015, 08:39:44 am »
Switching stats would make junker useless and spire invincible. Spire could out dps everything and junker would constantly be forced to balloon block- unless balloon is damaged and then they just die. 2.4 seconds of buffed greased gat to break a junker. Metamidions would kill a junker like nothing.