CP/CK and how to fix it

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I've said it before, Aerodrome will not feature CP/CK gameplay till Muse fixes the current CK system. Matches are even more onesided and over before they ever really start. Ideally CK should see some of the tensest and hardest fought matches because each second and point is dependent on the tactics of the teams fighting. Aerodrome has seen some truly remarkable battles which made clans who really had a well defined strategy shine. Ryders have shown this with their triple pyra machine.

So lets discuss, how can Muse fix it? Sure the easy answer is to just return the cap points to their original states instead of so few. But Muse has added an Aerodromesce kill point rule into the mix. Should it be nixed too?

Frankly if we look at it from their standpoint, they are doing this because of the large outcry from newer players who get into CK battles and get overwhelmed quickly or the battles take too long for their attention spans. So by introducing the kill for points aspect and the lower point cap, Muse figured to kill two birds with one stone so to say. This assures bliss to them but anger from more experienced players who enjoy CK. The problem is, this isn't working. I still come into matches and find lobbies empty when a CK match is chosen. Now more of it is vets who despise it or newbs who only want TDM. The changes really didn't solve anything.

So lets look at the original root cause of the problem going back the last two years. Why people hate CP/CK so much? Think back all of you, how many times Desert Scrap had been selected and the players thought it was Dunes? I actually couldn't tell you, its just been so often that Scrap would turn into a joke and a reason for me to dust off the Munker and make them learn the hard way that Scrap = CP.

Early on about 2yrs back I saw this and suggested, along with others, that the match selections needed to state TDM or CP on them. The icons being all the same were only causing confusion. Now here we finally are with this implemented and it has helped greatly. I've noticed confusion diminish quite a bit. People no longer get into matches they don't want to play.

So here is an addition that must be kept. There can be no change to this for CK/CP.

So if this is now resolving a major issue with the selection of CK battles, do we need the other changes?

I'd argue that we don't. Lower point cap totals to promote faster matches is now not needed. People who like CK/CP battles and longer fights will like them again which will differentiate them from normal quick TDM fights.

Now moving on to the kills for points addition. First of all, this was added to the Aero rules as a way for teams to earn points even when they were getting their butts kicked. It was a feature that was meant to be a bonus on top of whatever they earned. Why the point value was kept low and there was a 10 kill shared cap. It wasn't meant to be a means of farming points.

With the current system, I've noticed multiple battles where a team got within striking distance of the cap and just stopped caring about capturing. They turned to killing and farmed the remaining few points from this to get the win. This goes against the base gameplay of CK/CP.

Thus Aerodrome kill for point system, only really works on a tournament level where the kills can be calculated and awarded as bonus after the fact. That isn't to say the system couldn't be worked in, however the points awarded are high and the points to victory too low.

But where is the balance? 5 points? 10? Another idea is to just reverse things and have respawns spend points, forcing the team that lost a ship to farm more points via caps. But what do you do if a team has zero? Keep it zero? Go negative? Discuss.

[Daft Loon]

I think points lost for deaths could work out well, it should be on death though not respawn, an incentive to sit looking at the respawn screen would not be good.

An idea - Different kill points depending on the status of the point/ if the ship is contesting. I'm not sure what differences would be right though. Probably biased in favor of the attacker.

As far as crazy king goes the points total isn't/wasn't the problem with people thinking they took too long, the maps are simply too big. IMO raid on the refinery is the largest (by point spacing) that they should be.

Capture point is to me more or less fine with a few small gripes:
-The compass indicator in the new UI is tiny for no apparent reason
-Desert scrap is too defensible and the storms are 90% annoyance and only 10% shaping map balance/strategy
-The points to win didn't need to change on top of points for kills (they would maybe be right with negative points from kills)

Another idea - The map loading screen for new captains should be covered by a large font explanation of the CP/CK gamemode as relevant reverting to standard after getting an achievement "capture 5 points in crazy king" etc. Or any other more blatant way to ensure they know what to do.

[Kamoba]

I miss playing capture point... Only lobbies that stay alive long enough for it to start, are full lobbies of vet players, or the tutorial skippers who, as we all know, are totally pro at the game and never get lost...

[DJ Tipz N Trix]

I wrote a little article on this same topic in feedback and suggestions: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6628.0.html

The main gist of it was that the long capture time, the small point win condition, the lack of 2v2 CP/CK maps, and the unfair advantages caused by load time / spawn points are the main things holding back CP maps right now.

I had a bunch of possible propositions for each issue, but I actually think the reduced point win condition will be fine if Muse fixes other things like allowing the point to be captured more quickly.  It's the excessive time it takes to capture a point (longer than it takes to respawn) that prevents teams from taking back the point.  If teams can change hands of the point more quickly, it will be fine to have the reduced point win conditions as teams won't be getting such large streaks of points every time they capture the point, and matches will take a reasonable amount of time still.

I think the kill points are not a problem at all.  Especially on Crazy King, where the map will neutralize the point for you, suiciding to get to the next point faster and to get a ship with 100% health is a great strategy if kills are not awarded any points.

[BlackenedPies]

^

[Arturo Sanchez]

Is being killed by the "harsh world" counts towards kill points on the other team?

In death match it doesnt count.



but yeah I've missed ck classic. It use to be my favourite mode because of the diverse tactics that could be played.

that was lost with the new capture mechanic that pretty much only improves gameplay of king of the hill. In CK though it was always about tactical positioning. That aspect is mostly lost now as its turned to race to the point in a huge fleet game.

[BlackenedPies]

It counts as a kill if you have taken damage from an enemy. In ck it isn't a big deal because kills are only 13 pts.

[UndyingUndyne]

In addition to just outright reducing how long it takes to capture a point, another idea would be to increase how quickly a team would capture a point if they have more players on the point.

For example, if you've got one ship from your team (or two ships from your team and only one from the other) on the point, it would take 10 seconds for your team to capture the point. If your team has two ships (or three ships from your team but only one from the other team) on the point, then it would take, say, 5 seconds to capture the point.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Perhaps a good way would be to make neutralising the point faster and conquering it the same as it was (or longer) so even if you don't capture the point you get something by denying additional points from the enemy. Also, yes, CK maps are too big and that makes a few ships not very valid in this mode.

Also, why people didn't like CK? Because it could take so damn long, even with normal people playing. I wasn't really happy knowing that I'll be playing 50 or more minutes match that isn't very rewarding (especially for engineers). I think that was the problem - either you could win without one shot (lobby filled with newbs and you chill with your squid) or it would go on and on for too long.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Yes but what Muse took it down to originally was fine. Aero events we'd rarely see matches coming close to 30 minutes. Had the point totals stayed the same and they added the kill point rules, things would be fine. You'd have matches run just long enough for some tense engagements but not overly long where people would get bored. Points for kills helps solve that.

We don't need 400 point + 13 per kill matches.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Well, maybe, I'm not into competetive scene so I'm talking only from (semi-)pub experience. People didn't want 50+ min matches.

Perhaps we may want to have a division between competetive and casual modes? That way you kinda keep pub peeps happy and let competetive vets play what they like.

(also I think it's pretty reasonable to set just a strict in-game limit for game time to 30-40 minutes, whatever you're playing for longer than that is usually just frustrating. Game ends and whoever have more points wins, for draws in DM you could could in the permahull values to determine the winner)

[Arturo Sanchez]

Old ck. bring it back. Old ck even if your allies are dimwits you can actually do the some hurt to the other team. Plus tactical positioning from the team on a full map basis was so much better during the old times.


also desert scrap points limit needs to be increased.


that map achieve is ridiculous unless its changed back to the higher number.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Also consider how many times there is a 50 minute match. It is not common. If it's maybe once a day or even week...why punish the people who like CK just because some kids can't sit still long enough for 1 match that goes a little long? If they don't like it they can exit match. If they don't like the negative mark on their completion they could always ask Muse to remove it. Or just go back to CoD and take their attention spans with them.

I've said before I'm all for a hardcore mode and a normal mode in GOIO. Normal means flying nerf guns and turret bumper boat combat, hardcore means tearing ships in half with one barrage and tense battles. But since we're getting private hosting in the near future, that'll do the same.

[Arturo Sanchez]

The major loss for ck was the tactical versatility.

In the old rules where 1 ship could outright block.
You could have a ship rear guard to delay the cap/decap outright while the teammates secured the next point.
Then kill yourself via 3 or 2 v 1 on previous point and come in via spawn teleport.
Or defend the point 2 v 3 and send a scout to next point at end game.

None of these tactics aren't as viable now because of the new capture rules.

It works on king of the hill. But on CK? It was never needed. There was always the next point. I mean... sure keep the kill points thing. It can easily end games faster when it comes to 13 points or less end game capture battles. But Jesus christ don't make CK a dumbed down version of itself.

It works on king of the hill because there is only one point. It precisely doesn't on ck because there are alot of points.

Hell if people complain about 1 ship full blocking. Increase the capture rate. There's just so many better alternatives than stupid full team chase the point.

Old CK forced people to use their brains and thats not a bad thing muse.

[The Djinn]

The major loss for ck was the tactical versatility.

In the old rules where 1 ship could outright block.
You could have a ship rear guard to delay the cap/decap outright while the teammates secured the next point.
Then kill yourself via 3 or 2 v 1 on previous point and come in via spawn teleport.
Or defend the point 2 v 3 and send a scout to next point at end game.

Agreed. I won games through strategic Squid Hydrogen/Chute Vent shenanigans on a captured point, pulling engineers off the guns to tank the hull / balloon as we played merry havoc with the enemy's ability to track us. I miss that terribly -- it was moments like that that really made me LOVE capture point.

The new one is so...stagnant. You have to play a brawling ship, since you have to go for the point -- your team loses if you hang back and snipe or zone instead. I can't find a reason to bring anything else. If it can't kill an enemy at close range while standing on the point, there's no real point to bringing it.