Author Topic: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?  (Read 31213 times)

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 01:41:26 am »
The problem with increasing turn speed is that the ship becomes the goto ship for every pilot who does not like thinking ahead and anticipating enemy moves... Which means every less experienced pilot...

Also due to the amount of out-dated information saying how "good" the pyra is, there are still many players who use it under the now false information that it is good...

Personally I don't know what should be done with it.. In a balanced match of players who know their salt, its one of the absolute weakest choices, meaning its unbalanced.. But in a lobby of less salted players, it manages to get wins due to the easy "point and shoot" play style...

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 02:34:09 am »
Assuming 20m spread to be acceptable:
Hwacha - 285m
Old Hwacha - 190m
Heavy clip Hwacha - 952m
Nerfed burst Hwacha (+ 30% spread) - 220m
Light flak - 1176m (1000m range limit)
Light flak + 30% - 905m
With burst Hwacha getting 1.6 times the rockets of heavy assuming a linear effect of allowed misses to be equally effective:
Burst Hwacha - 342m
Old burst Hwacha - 228m
Heavy Clip Hwacha - 714m
Nerfed Burst Hwacha - 263m

Calculating as:  range = (Acceptable spread x 360)/(2 x pi x jitter). 20m is roughly the largest diameter circle that fits on the side of a galleon.
Giving burst a spread nerf would dial it back towards where it was before (+50% would be equal), i don't think the effect on light flak would really be that bad - it would just mean swapping to charged for that range (+8% damage per clip rather than +20% and unloads slightly faster than burst). It won't make heavy clip any better but I'm not sure that's needed.

For a different approach what about nerfing the explosive damage on the hwacha, currently it can one clip junker, pyra and mobula (with squid and spire too assuming a small amount of gattling etc hull damage) using unbuffed burst rounds. Maybe it shouldn't be as good at killing, moving it out of the Heavy Flaks area a bit.


Some numbers for pyra:

Linear Acceleration average: 3.94
Pyra: 2.25  (6th)

Linear Speed Average: 32.8
Pyra: 30.35  (3rd)

Angular Acceleration Average: 11.2   
Pyra: 6.25  (5th)

Angular Speed Average: 13.5
Pyra: 11  (6th)

Vertical Acceleration Average: 3.79
Pyra: 2.75 (6th)

IMO its top speed is actually too fast, if you account for the much easier kerosene usage it enjoys its on par with the goldfish. I would favor giving it better linear acceleration at the expense of speed which would help both charging ambushes and dogfighting.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 07:02:20 am »
Assuming 20m spread to be acceptable:

The distance in height between the light gun and heavy guns on the galleon is 7m and its about the same from the heavy guns to the bottom so it would be more like 15m.

Anyways, I have a piece of code I wrote to calculate the average maximum effective ranges of weapons such as hwacha against different components taking into account their hitbox sizes and the damage falloff of the aoe when the projectiles hit farther away. I'll just run the old and new hwacha with the current heavy(70% jitter) and burst being tested vs the destruction of a heavy gun to find the maximum effective range and leave it here:

average maximum effective ranges-

old hwacha-
burst:246m
buff burst:269m
heavy:515m
buff heavy:565m

current hwacha-
burst:369m
buff burst:403m
heavy:773m
buff heavy:847m

also just for the sake of the proposed burst jitter increase of +30%-
new hwacha with proposed burst rounds: 283m
I semi-like this suggestion, not because of the light flak because I just use heatsink on the light flak and normal when not in range for those 200m of difference. I don't really like it because it is again, addressing an issue with a gun through a change of an ammo type - Which is a wrong way of thinking about it in my opinion.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 07:16:26 am »
The problem with increasing turn speed is that the ship becomes the goto ship for every pilot who does not like thinking ahead and anticipating enemy moves... Which means every less experienced pilot...

Personally I don't know what should be done with it.. In a balanced match of players who know their salt, its one of the absolute weakest choices, meaning its unbalanced.. But in a lobby of less salted players, it manages to get wins due to the easy "point and shoot" play style...

It doesn't need to be much. Awhile back Muse did a half a degree speed up in dev app and while it was still slow, it was enough to make it bearable. Point is, you'd be surprised how minor they need to tweak the Pyra to give it the turn rate boost it needs to counter it's shitty health.

As far as mental ability of pilots. The ship is already so weak that it just gets outclassed no matter how much mental prepwork a pilot does. The only position left to it becomes a support ship of some kind. The problem is with the Pyra that it is so damn slow it can't do that well because the moment someone sees it, it'll be focused on and killed.

Lets look at all the ships that can be support ships and see why they can excel in that role:

Squid - Fast, light armor, and quick hitting. A harasser. Can go beyond support but only with pilot skill and build.
Spire - Slow and an easy target, but makes up for weakness with firepower.
Galleon - Very slow, big target, but massive firepower and hull HP to counter focus fire.
Mobula - Slow, great vertical, high fire power. Great sniping platform that can also handle CQC in a pinch.
Goldfish - Fast, easy to repair and crew. Very dependent on forward gun staying up at all times.
Junker - Jack of all trades, can handle sniping or CQC to support an ally well. Lacks any speed to intercept. Has absolute insane armor due to gun point hitboxes.

The Pyra for over a year has been an attacker. Support roles were never a strong suit except for it's original days. It just lacks the flexibility. If you are going support and want total flexibility, you want Junker or Mob. If you want speed and the ability to change up roles on the fly, you take Squid. Firepower/sniper, take Spire/Galleon/Mob.

Right now say the Pyra goes sniper support on the side...it'll have maybe one engagement before it is focused on hard. Just no way it can dish out the ranged damage to do anything before foes are in it's face. Now say the pilot uses tools to shift ship orientation to address the oncoming attacker...the attacker only has to evade once and get in the Pyra's massive blindspot. There it'll likely be able to unload a whole clip into the Pyra before it can get it's gun arcs back on.

So evasion options...everything it has is tool based. In that situation. Gunning engines might work for a moment. But under sustained fire and with slow movement, how long will those engines last? Armor is going to drop before it breaks. Similar situation with Claw. Now Hydro, there is an option. But vertical is so slow that unless it is buffed, it won't do you much good. Chute is an option but again, so slow it won't buy you much time. Either way, vertical tools leave the vessel too weakened for more evasions so the ship just folds up.

You just run out of options too fast with the Pyra. You can say, plan ahead or think better till you're blue in the face. It isn't going to mean squat when the vessel is just outclassed by everything now.

If the ship is tuned for beginner players to prevent them from overusing it, you get a vessel that is a laughingstock which experienced players run circles around. No one really takes Pyras seriously anymore either way. However, if you tune it for experienced, you'll suddenly have experienced players thinking about loadouts and builds more as even in novice hands, it has the potential to be a threat.

Which is what it all comes down to...is the Pyra a threat right now? Answer is no.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 07:18:02 am by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 07:57:33 am »
Which is what it all comes down to...is the Pyra a threat right now? Answer is no.

Even the current Pyramidion could be a thread, just like every other ship in the game can also not be a threat. The Galleon is just as bad of as the Pyramidion, if not worse, it can't even fly towards its allies without losing arc.

Not saying the Pyramidion couldn't use a slight buff, but still.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 09:45:18 am »
I don't really like it because it is again, addressing an issue with a gun through a change of an ammo type - Which is a wrong way of thinking about it in my opinion.
Considering how this started thats probably a good point (although I like the heavy clip change if only because it gives me an excuse for loch heavy carronade and -100% looked silly in some cases).

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 10:13:44 am »
I don't really like it because it is again, addressing an issue with a gun through a change of an ammo type - Which is a wrong way of thinking about it in my opinion.
Considering how this started thats probably a good point (although I like the heavy clip change if only because it gives me an excuse for loch heavy carronade and -100% looked silly in some cases).


I think it would've been better all along for the Heavy Carronade to reduce it's Fletchette damage to a point where it leaves the balloon at 5-10% hp so you had Heavy Clip for disables and keeping ships literally still in the air or Charged/Loch for damage and two shotting balloons. Light Carronade would also have to be affected by this aswell.

Offline Fynx

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2015, 08:15:21 am »
I think it would've been better all along for the Heavy Carronade to reduce it's Fletchette damage to a point where it leaves the balloon at 5-10% hp so you had Heavy Clip for disables and keeping ships literally still in the air or Charged/Loch for damage and two shotting balloons. Light Carronade would also have to be affected by this aswell.

Noooo leave my carronade alone ;_;

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2015, 08:28:17 am »
I think it would've been better all along for the Heavy Carronade to reduce it's Fletchette damage to a point where it leaves the balloon at 5-10% hp so you had Heavy Clip for disables and keeping ships literally still in the air or Charged/Loch for damage and two shotting balloons. Light Carronade would also have to be affected by this aswell.

Noooo leave my carronade alone ;_;

I believe it's already nerfed to this point (Excluding Heavy Carro, I think Ive seen it two shot balloons still but I cant tell because literally every fish is hwacha now thanks to muse) Mine is just a slight damage buff compared to what we have + reverting heavy.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2015, 12:03:29 pm »
It needed a down arc reduction and the shatter damage was way too much. It didn't need the up arc nerf and the new reload seems a bit too long. It still does 1.5x the dps of light carro to balloon but the jitter increase was silly.

Offline Mr.Bando

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2015, 04:03:22 am »
I think it would've been better all along for the Heavy Carronade to reduce it's Fletchette damage to a point where it leaves the balloon at 5-10% hp so you had Heavy Clip for disables and keeping ships literally still in the air or Charged/Loch for damage and two shotting balloons. Light Carronade would also have to be affected by this aswell.

Noooo leave my carronade alone ;_;

I believe it's already nerfed to this point (Excluding Heavy Carro, I think Ive seen it two shot balloons still but I cant tell because literally every fish is hwacha now thanks to muse) Mine is just a slight damage buff compared to what we have + reverting heavy.

A few things I like to correct you on

Heavy carro has always been able to two-shot a balloon without any damage buffs either from ammunition or the buff tool providing the balloon catches all the shots from its shotgun spread.

That's what heavy clip did. Tighten its spread, effectively increases its useful range. Also concentrates the shots into a small area so you can take out guns and engines with it.

Lochnagar allowed you to one shot a balloon. Yes..  In one shot. Not two, one. At maximum range. What made this particularly scary was the game mechanic where any damage done that exceeded the health of component flowed over onto the armour and hull without any damage modifiers. Loch a badly damaged balloon and pretty much strip off all the armour covering the hull as well.




Offline Mr.Bando

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2015, 07:20:49 am »
I still don't know how I would like my pyra. Its top speed is decent enough to remain unchanged. But I agree that one of its two major nerfs need to be reverted. Either make it a slow turner but back to its old tanky state. Or lighten up its hull HP but give it more agility and acceleration.

That or have its stats fine tuned. It should be its own ship, not share similar abilities in tanking or turning of those of a squid or galleon.

Offline Newbluud

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2015, 05:13:11 pm »
I don't know how much difference it would make, so educate me if it's irrelevant, but give a hefty nerf to the hwacha's explosive/piercing damage. I know it's not really high, but make it a little more specialised to the disable role might be a suitable nerf without removing the satisfaction of the feed spam when you blast a ship at point blank.

After all, a good hwacha blast can hurt the hull more than I think it should, additionally, the fact that it can kill is too much in my opinion.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 06:14:31 pm »
I would gladly fly a pyra with 550 hull but not with 2.25 m/s2.

The hwatcha used to be balanced in terms of damage because heavy clip was necessary for range and burst was only good up close. Now since the jitter was reduced by 1/3 burst is the only effective ammo and it's damn good. Rather than decreasing damage it should be reverted back to near the old jitter. As much as I love the new buff burst it's too powerful. Because I'm biased I think the jitter should be increased to 5.

Reducing the explosive damage wouldn't hurt balance much. A small 10-20% reduction might help. One clip of burst deals 948 dmg if every shot hits hull.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 06:21:00 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Newbluud

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Re: Hwacha and Pyramidion Balance?
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2015, 07:06:51 pm »
The hwatcha used to be balanced in terms of damage because heavy clip was necessary for range and burst was only good up close. Now since the jitter was reduced by 1/3 burst is the only effective ammo and it's damn good. Rather than decreasing damage it should be reverted back to near the old jitter. As much as I love the new buff burst it's too powerful. Because I'm biased I think the jitter should be increased to 5.

Reducing the explosive damage wouldn't hurt balance much. A small 10-20% reduction might help. One clip of burst deals 948 dmg if every shot hits hull.

Personally, I'm all for hitting the explosive damage pretty heavily. Considering how effective the weapon is at ship-wide disables, if used by a gunner worth his weight in salt, I feel it's still a viable option if reduced almost entirely to a support role. Keep its shatter damage stupidly high, I say, let em break all the things, just remove its ability to kill. I feel doing so would put it on par with some of the other heavy guns, in that it is a situational weapon, not a spam weapon. After all, the others all have very specialised roles; why should one be more versatile and commendable in all the fields it is used in?

Breaking everything, pulling engis away from their cycles, or the hull, can spell death for a ship. Giving the source of that the power to one-clip most ships up close (especially considering said ship is likely slowed due to having only just repaired engines, so closing the gap is easy) is broken, I think. It feels that the only viable counter for the hwacha at present is to stay out of the way or snipe it out before it unleashes a payload of screen-shaking despair.

I don't feel the current hwacha is broken in terms of the game. We've all fought enough quad hwacha galleons to know how deal with it, but the fact that everything else is so niche makes me feel like something isn't being looked at right in terms of its stats.

I don't know. I guess I'd prefer it to be less of a dumb weapon. It feels dumb in comparison to the other heavy guns, wherein you aim for the general area of a ship you want to make stop working, and can unleash on a downed hull for a kill.

Again, I could be very wrong. I'm still new to the community and a lower-mid-level player. I could be overlooking a massive downside besides the huge reload time, so feel free to correct me. I'm just brainstorming possible nerfs that won't do to the hwacha what happened to the minotaur.