Author Topic: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change  (Read 2184 times)

Offline Lueosi

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Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« on: July 07, 2015, 11:51:38 am »
Hi competitive folks! Currently we have a the coin toss rule to decide a tied match. Obviously nobody likes matches decided by a coin toss so I'd like to propose a tiebreaker match.

Duel at Dawn 10min time limit, first kill, first part destruction on tie.


Another thing i thought about were matches without progression. If the match is tied by score and all captains agree, the match ends and a tiebreaker match gets played. I'm just thinking about the last SCS Firnfeld match when both teams hesitated to engage to not lose their positioning advantage. In that case the team captains could have called for a tie and played a more interesting match for viewers and players.

What do you think about those two ideas?

Offline Velvet

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2015, 12:06:49 pm »
well if you have 15 mins to spare anyway, (added 5 for lobby move) just give a time extension to avoid the tie in the first place.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2015, 12:18:53 pm »
what if the duel match ends up 0-0?

I dont think this rule has any significance anyway, how often does a 0-0 match show up?
also if this is the case and you dont like the map you are on, this rule could be used to your own advantage by corner camping with heavy artillery for 20 minutes.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 01:23:10 pm »
what if the duel match ends up 0-0?

I dont think this rule has any significance anyway, how often does a 0-0 match show up?


Duel at Dawn 10min time limit, first kill,first part destruction on tie.

About the specific map, I don't really like having it be ALWAYS duel. Since duel is a really close range map and if your team is better at long range stuff than close range you are at a clear disadvantage. I thought about just having it another random map, but that could mean that any picked map can be a map oriented heavily towards either long or close range which just repeats the same point.

I asked lu why duel at dawn and he said that it was because it promoted engagements and is very likely to not end up with no kill after 10 minutes of match.

The point of having a map that encourages engagements is an important one, and so does a map that is balanced in the sense of not promoting any particular range of engagements or playstyle with a noticeable balance of even sides and opportunities for both red and blue. I think its really hard to find a map like this, which is why it could be problematic to implement this kind of rule.
Personally I am torn if we should let this through or not because of this reason.


About the second idea with teams calling a tie breaker if its not going anywhere, I think it's really unlikely it will come to this, and even if it will, I expect it to go the same way like when you want to finish a match quick and both sides agree on finishing it, but for ego reasons no team wants to be the one that surrenders and thus "lose" the game. I think both teams will acknowledge the need for a tie breaker, but no team will step forward and ask the other one for a tie - because it indirectly displays the acceptance of defeat.
Not saying it'll be a bad idea, but it most likely will rarely be ever used because of team ego and pride.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:29:58 pm by Extirminator »

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 01:45:47 pm »
I somehow don't like the idea of an extra game on the map dawn with only 10min of playtime, but it seems very reasonable and ok-ish.

However, I completely disagree with how the first destroyed component makes a difference. Aside from disable builds potentially having an easier time, there might be cloud issues where one team can see the other, but not the other way around, resulting in and unfair early advantage.

Counter proposal: If there is a 0-0 tie, which means no team got the first kill to win a game in a tie, both teams lose. At the very least, it should be the rule for the extra Tiebreaker Duel at Dawn match, if it ends up in a 0-0.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 04:41:03 am »
I think velvet's idea is best.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 07:07:11 am »
Ask yourself this: If two teams are scared enough of an engagement for an entire match, why would they change their set of minds if you add another few minutes?

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2015, 07:32:27 am »
Thank you for the feedback so far!

What do you think about both teams losing if they don't manage to get a single kill?

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2015, 08:02:23 am »
I think that if even the tie breaker has failed to determine a winner - no team should be crowned victorious because at this point it's just ridiculous, you can keep asking the question of - "what if..." but it just gets so unlikely and the means to determine a winner get so controversial that you might as well just declare a tie between them.
No one said the event has to have a winner.

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2015, 08:55:42 am »
In the Skype group there was the idea of making both teams lose if they tie a match without kill (no tiebreaker game).

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2015, 09:33:21 am »
I think that if even the tie breaker has failed to determine a winner - no team should be crowned victorious because at this point it's just ridiculous, you can keep asking the question of - "what if..." but it just gets so unlikely and the means to determine a winner get so controversial that you might as well just declare a tie between them.
No one said the event has to have a winner.

This ^

There is no prize or crown for winning the scs...
Either that or mine is lost in the post somewhere ;)

Obviously other tournaments with a prize would need to figure out there own rules.

It is interesting to see Ties becoming a more increasing thing to happen, perhaps this is due to the match time reduction, which as I was aware was put in to avoid the event taking too long when there were lots of teams taking part..

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2015, 09:51:20 am »
Would going back to 30 minutes not relieve this issue a bit?

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2015, 01:01:40 pm »
Would going back to 30 minutes not relieve this issue a bit?

No https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5yX_oEQYY&index=5&list=PL7-GzLUVy6cFIXKpqbhzXbW6b__Q6XIAv
If both teams decide that this is their tactic, then it will happen.

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish Tiebreaker Rules change
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2015, 11:42:24 am »
Another thing i thought about were matches without progression. If the match is tied by score and all captains agree, the match ends and a tiebreaker match gets played. I'm just thinking about the last SCS Firnfeld match when both teams hesitated to engage to not lose their positioning advantage. In that case the team captains could have called for a tie and played a more interesting match for viewers and players.

I do believe calling a tie was suggested and agreed upon by both teams in that particular match, but we got nothing from the refs on that.