Author Topic: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.  (Read 18897 times)

Offline Mr.Bando

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Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« on: July 01, 2015, 02:39:01 am »
Noticed this trend coming out with many galleons fitted with only hwatchas for heavy weapons. Since gunners can regain stamina from destroying components on enemy ship. Chuck that on a galleon with one of the best shatter guns and you get a gunner drinking in plenty of stamina to fuel speed reloads while chain firing* both guns. This can keep many inexperienced players stun locked and unable to do a thing. Add a gattling and the outcome is pretty much decided. I suppose one can argue that this has been around for a long time, but with stamina system added and how it affect gunners, it has gotten more powerful.



Fully legit or the new trollship to pound hapless newbs with?


Discuss


*act of firing one gun till ammunition in magazine is expended then jumping onto different gun and firing that while first gun reloads
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:46:08 am by Mr.Bando »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2015, 02:53:05 am »
The main change was the -30% jitter reduction on hwatcha. Gunner stamina refills the slowest and disabling 4 components only fills it up 1/3. By using the full 6.5 seconds of stamina you can reduce a reload by a max of 1.6 seconds.

The change was the hwatcha buff not gunner stamina. Muse said the jitter reduction was to match the nerf of heavy clip but it was just a huge buff to burst hwatcha. Burst hwatcha can now be paired with lesmok gat. Gat double hwatcha left is quite effective on brawl galleon, double hwatcha right side is not (only support).

I think hwatcha jitter should be reduced to -20% of original or less, and heavy clip needs a buff. Heavy clip should reduce clip by 20% not 25%, and if the jitter is staying the same then it could have a burst radius bonus of +10-20% which would also slightly benefit banshee and light flak. And buff heavy carronade too.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 03:07:36 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline ZnC

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2015, 03:51:36 am »
Good observation, I haven't been playing the game lately but what you guys mentioned makes sense. Hwacha accuracy buff with gunner stamina would make double Hwacha broadside pretty strong; you'd only need one gunner to man them so the buff-gineer can focus on engineering. I am not so sure about using stamina for a second or two off the Hwacha reloads though, using stamina to help the Galleon's limited arc sounds applicable to more situations.

Offline IvKir

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2015, 04:54:52 am »
Well, it is strong, that i can tell. But you still can counter it.

First - if you flying something, that not Galleon or Pyramidion - you can outrun and outmaneuver double hwacha side and get in front, or behind it. Behind is better.
Second - gatling and mortar with burst can damage guns pretty quickly.
Third - Tar cloud and Vent tools can give you an edge against double hwacha galleon.
Four - you still can use disable builds. Spire, with hwacha or merc gun can be a something, that enemy galleon should fear.

So in my opinion double hwacha galleons is not as fearsome, as they may be

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2015, 05:10:49 am »
Hwacha was buffed, but quad hwacha galleon, is from my observations only what newbies take because they see "BIG SHIP BIG GUNS!"
Though the double Hwacha galleon as bralwer to.counter metamidion is good... There are better loadouts to "troll" with.
But double hwacha galleon, with gunner stamina boosts, is still very weak in many scenarios.

Offline Indreams

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 05:47:49 am »
I haven't played a lot since the change, but dual hwacha stun lock was a thing before. Especially for less experienced crews in 2v2s.

A good pilot can maneuver out of it. An experienced engineer can prioritize repairs to avoid prolonged stun. A practiced gunner can quickly disable a hwacha.


It's easy to counter a dual hwacha galleon. Of course, I am a little dated. But I doubt the above changed much.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 07:39:36 am »
Inexperienced players always have trouble against all the ships. Double Hwacha is probably one of the easier things for them to deal with, as long as there is no additional piercing gun like a Gatling on them. All they have to do is go upwards or downwards, that will work with all ships against a Galleon, sometimes even when the own ship is a Galleon too. A double hwacha Galleon is in this sense an actual good enemy, since it teaches inexperienced players that when you use the 3rd axis to your advantage, death can be avoided.

A double Hwacha Galleon with a Gatling on the same side may just create a sense of helplessness as inexperienced players die, but a Gatling and a Mortar, or a Light Flak even, kill a little bit quicker, as far as my experience can tell.

What I find more devastating is the combination of Hwacha and Heavy Carronade or double Heavy Carronade, because then the ability to dodge up and down is either limited or non-existent and death will follow inevitably.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 07:42:02 am by Dementio »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2015, 09:01:46 am »
Double hwacha has been one of my favourite gunning roles since before the patch and although it allways had its merits the stamina arcs have made stopping people getting away much easier, in a good case you might get back all the stamina you used to make the shot.

There's quite a range of skill that can go into it from the aforementioned novices taking it because it seems powerful through to the pilot keeping medium-short (as opposed to short) range to limit dodging, the gunner consistently landing the shots from both guns at full speed and repairing each as he goes, and the engineers being coordinated to keep a gattling firing amongst repairs. With a good gunner, a few clips worth of arcs and either moderately careless armor repairs or supporting fire (from your own light gun or elsewhere) most ships will be doomed and failing that still disabled to some extent. It is still however a galleon with the usual horrendous weakness to mercury, artemis and competent opposing pilots.

I had great fun once thrown into a quasi-novice match as the engineer on a galleon with a double hwacha + flare side, it takes a fair bit of experience that my opponents lacked to keep chem spray against hwacha barrages and 15 fire stacks do enough damage during a mallet cooldown to tip them over the edge even if they use extinguisher.

From - http://ducksoficarus.servegame.com/ - double burst hwacha will take 20s to bludgeon through pyramidion armor with mallet repairs, it may be entirely possible to get the kill on the second clip of the second gun against an inferior opponent using only double hwacha. With no repairs it takes 40 hwacha shots to break a pyramidions armor and 14 to kill its hull so unloading both with good timing against an unprepaired engineer at point blank could do 8/14 hull damage with burst.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2015, 11:28:32 am »
The counter to galleons is maneuverability but once your engines are disabled the only vector you can maneuver on is the vertical one. Most new captains don't use the up/down vector in a fight and are more vulnerable to disable/brawler galleons.

There are many ways to prey on the inexperience of newbies. My favorite is still the flame thrower especially when they experiment with double gunner or no extinguisher buff loadouts. A flame lock can put an experienced crew out of action for a few seconds if they neglected their chem cycles, but I have seen a novice crew be put into damage control mode for over a minute or die outright from crashing as a result of a single flame thrower pass.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 07:13:48 am »
It's legit. A gunner running a bottom deck of all hwachas is as old as dirt. Will it wreck newbs? Sure, but a lot of stupid things will to. TB runs a newb killing boat called the "skreepoon", a mobula with banshees and harpoons and flares. What works against newbs is limitless and really shouldn't affect perception of builds. One merc on any ship pretty much renders the hwacha galleon useless.

Offline Mr.Bando

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 06:30:57 am »
Yes, it has been around for a long time since the introduction of the hwatcha/manticore. And yes, there are counters to them that are just as old. But it has also been shown how this load out is making a bit of a comeback on the pub games where the recent addition of stamina and the slight buff to its recoil has made it more potent than before. This ship can go onto the long list of many others that have confounded and frustrated new players in their seemingly over-powerful attacks. But then again its never the ship, but the people that turn them in to death machines,

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 07:06:28 am »
Yes, it has been around for a long time since the introduction of the hwatcha/manticore. And yes, there are counters to them that are just as old. But it has also been shown how this load out is making a bit of a comeback on the pub games where the recent addition of stamina and the slight buff to its recoil has made it more potent than before. This ship can go onto the long list of many others that have confounded and frustrated new players in their seemingly over-powerful attacks. But then again its never the ship, but the people that turn them in to death machines,
Salute.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 10:08:43 am »
Yes, it has been around for a long time since the introduction of the hwatcha/manticore. And yes, there are counters to them that are just as old. But it has also been shown how this load out is making a bit of a comeback on the pub games where the recent addition of stamina and the slight buff to its recoil has made it more potent than before. This ship can go onto the long list of many others that have confounded and frustrated new players in their seemingly over-powerful attacks. But then again its never the ship, but the people that turn them in to death machines,
Salute.

Technically, yes.

But please put a level 45 gunner on a gat flame squid that can fly good and expect them to turn it into a death machine against players who are equally as good on the other team. You can't.


Ships are merely there as a source for us to turn into death machines. If that source is flawed in any way then it affects our performance and makes it impossible to reach a desired capacity.

I can understand where it's coming from, however.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 10:48:45 am »
Actually, gat flame squid would be adequate build with a good pilot, fire damage (from the flamer) is effective against balloon and hull, and with the armour stripping of the gat, this would keep the enemy engineers very busy, even if they keep up their chems, you could suppress most enemies quite well and deal a good amount of damage.

Its just banshee kills faster so is the more popular choice.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Dual hwatcha galleon stun lock.
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2015, 11:33:01 am »
Actually, gat flame squid would be adequate build with a good pilot, fire damage (from the flamer) is effective against balloon and hull, and with the armour stripping of the gat, this would keep the enemy engineers very busy, even if they keep up their chems, you could suppress most enemies quite well and deal a good amount of damage.

Its just banshee kills faster so is the more popular choice.

Carronade can be considered superior simply due to the vertical options you gain by forcing someone to go downwards and the enviromental damage for most ships. But I'd rather we make a thread about that than derail this entirely.



Speaking of which, why is Gatling Flamer the default squid build?