Author Topic: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?  (Read 4845 times)

Offline Dementio

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And I mean it in the sense of high level, "super try hard" (not necessarily competitive) matches and not that random pub game where you can't expect your crew to be on top of their game.

I am just interested in seeing if anybody actually thought that having had a gunner instead of a 3rd engineer cost them the game or was the right choice after all.

Since most of my ship loadouts are made to work best with gunners and thus make excessive use of as many ammo types as possible I can say I was glad that I had a gunner in most of my matches.

However, there are also ships like the Blenderfish or one particular Mobula setup (which I don't use anymore after the mechanic of the Flamerthrower got changed) were I could not make the most of it, but still won due to superior teamwork, where dps seems to matter less as long as a ship can fulfill its general purpose (e.g.: A gunner can still destroy a balloon in two shots with the Heavy Carronade and doesn't need a buff hammer to do so).

It would also be interesting to see a comparision between before and after Stamina got introduced, if anybody can do that. But it is probably a really rare and desperate situation since pilots on that level are usually able to keep their gun arcs on the enemy, faster reloading not all that fast is and since the 3rd engineers usually stays on the gun, like a gunner would and so doesn't use stamina.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2015, 09:22:36 pm »
Yes and yes

I've never lost a match specifically due to a buff engi being on a non gunner gun and never won a match specifically due to a gunner being on a non gunner gun. Non gunner gun being the mine launcher or in some cases the lumberjack.

Gunners can be used for utility when manning multiple guns but I generally build ships around maximizing the potential of a spanner mallet buff engi. Post stamina is different so I can't attest to if the extra arcs ever won a match on a non gunner gun, but I don't think it makes a big difference over a good pilot and spanner mallet buff.

That said, having a gunner doesn't always hurt and there are ways to maximize their potential. Ships can be built around gunners and around buff engineers. Spanner mallet buff is usually the better choice for maximizing main damage potential.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 09:47:23 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2015, 09:59:15 pm »
An example is lumber spire. I used to bring a gunner because the extra ammos are useful to reduce arm range. I have since switched to buff and perform much better. I've been using a banshee downstairs (hades top) for a few reasons: more hull+armor dps than artemis, more disable and armor dmg than light flak, and greased ammo (excellent arcs too). If necessary the banshee engi (usually wrench buff) loads greased in lumber. This usually isn't needed because spires have good acceleration (double pyra accel) especially with a buffed main engine. The extra repair power greatly increases survival with the option of either helping top deck or bottom when repositioning. Buffed spire OP and engi stamina is good.

The point is I find on lumber spire the extra ammos are unnecessary compared to a spanner mallet buff. In a lumber spire duel the buff wins, 2 shot balloon pop and extra buffs. In the situations that lumber spire is best at you're better off by using the advantages of a spanner mallet buff.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:20:23 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2015, 01:03:44 am »
Never really ran with Gunners in competitive. With exception of Munkers of course. For Munkers I feel a loss came as a result of just lack of practice on a build from just everyone, not just the gunner or engineers. However, most of the time losses came as a result of neither and were actually either buggy game mechanics or rubberbanding. Nothing anyone can really do when your ship is rubberbanding across the map or velcroing into things. After those I'd say it would come down to lack of unity between crews and captains.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2015, 02:08:53 am »
Have won when I've had gunners on my ship on Hades, mine launcher and even H-carro.
Have won with triple engineer loadout.
Have lost equally with both and only found one match where I had a gunner and I said at the end of the match that I would have rather have had an engineer.. On the flip side I once had a gunner on Gatling in comp, which was, based on situation (Gilders Munker!) gave us the range of lesmok Gatling, keeping us out of mine reach long enough to harass the Munker while Ightrill pushed in...

So have experienced both the extremes where once I felt having a gunner was the wrong choice, and where having a gunner was the only reason we survived...

Offline Dementio

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2015, 05:37:35 am »
Yes and yes
Have lost equally with both and only found one match where I had a gunner and I said at the end of the match that I would have rather have had an engineer..
May I ask what circumstances you met to lose/win a match, because you had a gunner?



On the flip side I once had a gunner on Gatling in comp, which was, based on situation...
It is said that gunners are situational and this is something I find interesting with this "case study", because in the occasional weird and unexpected chain of events, gunner stamina or just that one extra ammo type can save a life, like everything does or could in this game.

In a lumber spire duel the buff wins, 2 shot balloon pop and extra buffs.
I have mentioned it somewhere else before that when you set two of the same ships against each other, the one with the buff wins. Probably because they are both fighting in their optimal range and never want to leave it, leading to the guns needing not too many ammo types. If they were to fight differently and in a manner that they are not supposed to, things may go different, but in your example the 3rd engineer would just rebuild the balloon better than the pipe wrench one, who would then shoot the gun with greased in close range. This leads to the obvious: You need more (different) guns on that Spire to have an excuse to use the gunner.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 05:39:26 am by Dementio »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2015, 06:01:46 am »
Blender fish vs blender fish I had a gunner, enemy had triple engineer, on their gun spanner mallet buff. They were able to rebuild their gun faster and keep our (slower rebuilding gun) disabled as well as keep our balloon popped.
Having a spanner mallet buff on the front gun may have been enough to keep us alive long enough for ally to assist, which then it would have just been a battle of the gunners as to who used the most efficient timing of shots, rather than my gunner and ship being walked all over because se couldn't rebuild anywhere near as fast as they could.

Also with a metamidion versus metamidion, my gunner insisted on being gunner (in a comp match) on Gatling, even with the extra range and ability to open fire earlier, we lost because once the enemy trip engi meta got in range they were able to strip armour much faster, even with a hydro dodge, it was still game over..

Buuut I have had scenarios in which the gunner saved my ships arse, commonly on Hades, mine launcher and two or three times on gat...

Offline Queso

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2015, 10:14:17 am »
Flak spire. Gunners have in my experience been able to use ammo to their advantage and hit enemies on armor breaks fairly consistently. If the enemy ships did not get destroyed we would have most certainly been rushed down and been killed. I would say we won because of a gunner.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: "Case study": Have you ever lost, because you had a gunner? Or won?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2015, 11:46:02 am »
Quote from: Dementio
May I ask what circumstances you met to lose/win a match, because you had a gunner?

I've won matches due to gunners on lumber and mine launcher because the arm range reduction is very useful. I used to use gunners on hades but I think I would always perform better with a spanner mallet buff. Gunners can make a difference on hades due to the extra 30 meters, but I think 9/10 times a buff engi will do better due to extra buffs, repairs, and damage (higher than greased). I don't find gunners useful on any non arm gun (besides flame), it has a niche use on hwatcha but I always prefer a buff. Gunner has use on heavy flak but a spanner mallet buff can significantly outperform a gunner. Buffed regular is similar to charged with 92.3% of charged dpc and 98.3% dps. If you'll mostly be further ranges then bring charged and if they will rush you then bring a reduction ammo. Heavy guns are very vulnerable to disable and I find the spanner mallet essential. There are many times where I've won simply due to having spanner mallet. Other times I've lost because we weren't dealing enough damage without a gun buff.

I used to use a mine launcher on the lumber spire to give an emergency option for the gunner (and for me to shoot, can be used on bottom next to lumber but I prefer an engi downstairs) but have since switched it to a flare with much greater success. The reason for the banshee isn't for the greased ammo, it's just a bonus. I often tell the banshee to load greased in lumber but by the time it's ready we're outside of arm range due to spire maneuverability. In any lumber spire duel that starts at lesmok range the buff will win. The gunner spire can ambush the buff spire into closer range engagements but in that case the ambushing spire should always win anyways, and the buff will extend the other spire's life and possibly allow them to escape fire. The flare is another big advantage when used correctly. Against lumberjacks I often have the banshee bring spanner mallet to repair balloon. I think that in all situations where lumber spires excel at you're better off with the extra damage, repairs, and buffs from an engi.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 12:05:58 pm by BlackenedPies »