Author Topic: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now  (Read 7511 times)

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2015, 02:14:34 pm »
I also believe that Pyra is quite weak as it is now.  Squids and Spires have almost double its hull health.  Odd.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 02:39:50 pm »
I don't think more health would help. It's the speed of a galleon with only 2 front facing light guns. It's outgunned at range and not maneuverable enough for close. It's small, easy to crew, and previously was fast. Making it tanky isn't a fix, give it speed!
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 02:45:01 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Kamoba

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 02:48:51 pm »
Anything the pyra is supposedly strong at can be matched and bettered by other ships... The squid, similar in size and profile, although harder to crew on, can be just as sneaky, and more effectively as it can reach flank positions and with many weapons can perform bi-fecta it just requires more practice than the pyra, extra benefits, squids perma hull is much more tanky...
The problem?
The figures for Pyramidions being most used, and with a high win count are still very high.
This could be attributed to the sheer volume of guides and video tutorials revolving around the pyramidion, showing how to crew it effectively and lack of information for other ships, this making it still the primary choice.
Also the pyramidions ability to crew easily and find the right roles easier means that when pilots do choose other ships, their crews failing to perform on other ships means they go back to the easier option, pyramidion.

In all honesty I don't see the Pyramidion being given good balance anytime soon because of the statistics...

It may be time to go on Pyra strike...
Stop using them and start stomping them hard, force the statistics to show their real position in the game...

Also I agree with Blackened... It needs speed... If it can't tank a fight it should be able to put up a fight...
But the stats aware holding muse back

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2015, 03:50:51 pm »
I also believe that Pyra is quite weak as it is now.  Squids and Spires have almost double its hull health.  Odd.

that was the first major complaint of the nerf.

A ram ship with a hull nerf=wha?

But us being so use to old squid and only spire, that isn't the worst of it. What really screwed it up was its ability to charge an enemy ship nerfed.

A Pyra was the forefront charging ship. It gambled everything on a successful charge into the enemy, made fairly successful for its fast forward acceleration.

To top a charging pyra you had to either be a freakishly good disable the guns or well timed hwacha.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 03:53:31 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2015, 04:34:58 pm »
Muse should really not make design decisions based on use or win counts. Its really dumb. I can see why they'd do it, but you can't make decisions on ships that are novice vessels. Squids win rate went up likely entirely because vets started using it again and beating the snot out of everyone. I almost exclusively use Squid now aside from Dunes where I'll use Rocketfish. But that is a small drop in the bucket because Fish and Pyras are novice selectable vessels. They are also easier to crew and pilot than squids. By using Muse's logic that means literally both Pyra and Fish should be nerfed to the point they have 1 point of hull HP and literally cannot move at all, just sit there in one spot shooting. Then you'll force people to stop using them and shift to other ships. Which is exceedingly dumb.

The Pyra cannot be balanced for current GOIO the way some of you want because the version everyone idolizes is from a version of the game that was inferior and needed the Pyra that way to be fun. The charging Pyra was established and worked because it had no equal. The game moved so piss poor slow and lagged like hell to the point a charging vessel had great advantages. Well after they nerfed sniper play into the toilet.

However, with stamina and the return to a higher speed play style of game, a slow vessel that cannot turn well and has poor HP is a liability. There are too many counters. The Galleon can be slow but it has broadsides that can turn the battle around quickly. Pyra has one massive blindspot. So if you make it rammy and turn like a beached whale, it won't help when you can just avoid it and get in the blindside. Sure it would work vs noobs but in competitive play, charges would be a huge liability. Now, make it very beefy, able to tank better, and you've got a chance to at least turn the tables as long as it isn't vs a rocketfish. But still, the vessel is a liability against fast ships right now.

The only option is to return the Pyra back to it's original, which no one but launch players remember. A Pyra which turned better, moved better, and was able to fend off faster vessels in the hands of a good pilot. Balance that with weaker hull and you've got a balanced vessel. Then as I've suggested many times now, you add a new "charging" exclusive vessel which has fewer blindspots so it can fend off faster vessels if it misses a charge.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 04:37:47 pm by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2015, 05:09:49 pm »
Mortars? I never fly meta. No mortars or gats on my Pyra. No flamers on any of my ships for the same reason. But sure, we can go with that.

My biggest issue with the Pyra is still the ridiculous weight used to compensate for the desire to make it a ramship. It accomplishes that OK, but messes up all the rest of the physics. Even a Galleon will half bounce off a Pyra when ramming. If it is to remain a 'ram' ship, a special ram mechanic needs to be added, doing more damage to the ship on the 'pointy' end of your ship. Then the mass can be nerfed to where it belongs.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2015, 06:17:44 pm »
I always wanted the pyra to have a high top speed but bad acceleration. It should be devestating in straight forward charges/ rams, if it sets them up properly.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2015, 07:05:58 pm »
It would be pretty hard to stop once you had it going if you had poor acceleration. Could be a good balance.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 07:48:04 pm »
How do you calculate max speed with tools? I think at max speed with tools it should be around goldfish speed, the max speeds are listed 30.35 pyra and 40.11 fish.

It needs more acceleration than currently. Spire has twice the acceleration of pyra (4.50 vs 2.25) and a max speed of 28. The hull health is ok and turning/vertical are fine, it needs speed. Rams are for control.

I don't think only upping the max speed is the answer because the acceleration is like a galleon (2.10). Maybe a balance of acceleration and speed.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2015, 08:53:48 pm »
My guess for max speed with tools, based on real physics is the square root of the % of original thrust x original speed.
So for pyra with kerosene:
100%+150% = 250% thrust
sqrt(2.5) = 1.58
1.58 x 30.35 = 47.99

They might not implement it that way and i may have screwed up my math/physics but it seems reasonable

edit: you won't actually ever get that speed because by the time you accelerate to it your engines are damaged, adding a good guess for the average health an engineer can maintain to the thrust part would make it better
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:56:13 pm by Daft Loon »

Offline VomAct

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 01:47:23 pm »
Pyras do need a forward acceleration buff, that much is clear.

However, that being said, I personally am grateful for this current meta of not taking pyramidions because it opens a lot more options for tactics and loadouts as opposed to matches with 4 metamidions and silly dps wars.  This is because those matches were boring for the most part.  Now, because of the added options introduced by stamina and the fact that there is no longer a clearly dominant strategy (metamidion + hades/flak pyramidion) the game is a far more interesting and vibrant experience.

Pyramidion is not a bad ship per se in its current state, it just no longer holds the monopoly on tanking, ramming, firepower, and speed.  It has been reduced from the clear best ship in the game to slightly less useful than the rest of the ships.  It is a solid jack-of-all-trades, master of none, but it isn't massively underpowered as Ceresbane suggests.  What the spire and squid buffs did, along with the pyramidion nerf, was make the game more balanced.

I stopped taking pyramidions after the nerf not because they sucked, but because I was so sick of flying pyras that anything else was an improvement.  All Muse did was make the other ships viable.  They did, of course, probably over-nerf the pyra, but restoring it to its former glory is definitely not the answer.  Perhaps an acceleration buff and a top speed buff, but the permahull is perfectly fine in my opinion.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 02:02:48 pm »
I mostly agree with VomAct..
If the pyra does get a buff (this is not likely anytime soon btw) I should only be a minor single change.
Turn, health or accel..
But not more than one of those...

Offline Sarabelle Marlowe

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2015, 01:12:18 am »
I mostly agree with VomAct..
If the pyra does get a buff (this is not likely anytime soon btw) I should only be a minor single change.
Turn, health or accel..
But not more than one of those...


I'm in the same boat, as it were. I positively hated being on a pyra as that more often then not it'd be meta. All meta all the time makes gunner a dull girl.

Even so, I agree the nerf was very much too harsh. A small buff (be it acceleration or health or maneuverability) just to make it a little more viable would be a welcome change. As I've mentioned in posts before, either make it so that it can handle being slow and clumsy by having it tanky-er or make it nimble enough to make up for being built out of moonshine soaked cardboard and duct taped dreams.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2015, 03:37:23 am »
I would agree, adding a dedicated ramming damage bonus is a good idea.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: to think pyra is even more sluggish than this now
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2015, 11:21:52 am »
Ramming damage is calculated (simplified) by speed x mass x impact modifier for part hit (and some other fiddly bits). I would personally like to see hotpoints on the ships adding either an extra damage multiplier, OR a different damage type.

This would make the new formula for a Pyramidian ram S x M x ID x P (P being the hotpoint) -OR-  (S x M x ID) + (S x M x P) where P can be any damage type.

I would personally prefer the second option, as it gives some interesting new possibilities. Piercing could be added to Pyramidian, more blunt impact to Galleon, and as a fun new feature, all engines could be given a bit of flechette.

Ships like Junkers and Mobulas would not get much, if anything.

I feel this could put the Pyramidian back in a better place, making it the low mass ship it should be. But it would still have it's ramming ability.