Author Topic: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs  (Read 7421 times)

Offline Narayan

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Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« on: June 09, 2015, 05:23:58 pm »
So there were a lot of nerfs, the pyra nerf which made the meta pyra slower than a galleon. Next up was the goldie nerf, more specifically heavy clip nerf, so now we have nerfed the two best ships in the game, ok thats "fair". So whats left you ask? The answer is the HWATCHA.
       
       With the new gunner stamina, hwatchas reload fast, and have near infinate arcs. Gone are the days that you could take a caro fish or a squid and come in on top of someone, take out their baloon and ride them to the ground, you cant, because with the new arcs they are going to get something, it may be your engines, it may be your front guns. This in my opinion has gotten ridiculous, because now the pilot class, more specifically a pilots skill, is no longer a factor in mitigating damage, because a gallon with a quick phonix claw +stamina turn, with the help of his gunners stamina arc can land a burst hwatcha shot nearly instantly on anyone, regardless of how they approach.
       
       In the effort to level the playing field the devs have nerfed ships, ammo, guns, and added stamina the easy button for gunner and pilot. This has created a serious flaw in the game play imo and one that need to be looked into. My suggestion is to eliminate stamina acrs, restore carro arcs to pre buff, and eliminate the turning aspect of pilot stamina.

      Your constant nerfs to balance game play wont change the fact that the players who play as a team will win, the people with mics who communicate well will do better, and your always going to have at least half the population of this game who have no interest in teamwork and will ruin any chance of wining for themselves and the crew. As long as you have people inviting their clans and thier friends into private crew forms and playing together there is no nerf in the world that can give the noobs, the trolls, and the people who dont listen or care a chance.

       If the devs are serious about making a nerf that will work to balance game play and ensure teams do well, then do this, give us vote kick. Then we wont be stuck with people who we dont want to play with, and people who in all reality really dont want to play with us because they dont like our play style. In the mean time since you probably wont do that, make it so that my piloting can keep me from getting hwatcha blasted and i can stay above or below arcs in my approach.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 05:54:54 pm by Narayan »

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 05:31:30 pm »
Hwacha arcs aren't actually that huge with Stamina...

Counter for your Burst Hwacha Claw/Stamina Galleons:

Come in low, from behind.  If they do the thing you complain about, Moonshine/Stamina under them, coincidentally using your balloon to block.  Stay underneath them, and when they drop to try and crush you, or simply try to move away, you can move out from under them, pop hydro, and get level with the balloon.  Now you're above them, too...

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 05:54:02 pm »
Brah, hwacha already has huge arcs. Stamina really doesn't effect it's performance all that much. It's a good gun and it does its job well. Stamina reloads are negligible, and the arc increase isn't a hard thing to avoid. If you're going to rush in headlong, of course you're going to get disabled. A good Hwacha gunner is gonna hurt no matter what. That's how heavy guns are supposed to work. Change how you're flying, the gun isn't the issue.

Also

Your constant nerfs to balance game play wont change the fact that the players who play as a team will win, the people with mics who communicate well will do better, and your always going to have at least half the population of this game who have no interest in teamwork and will ruin any chance of wining for themselves and the crew.

You want muse to reward people for playing poorly? This is a team based game, man.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 05:54:56 pm »
Quote
Hwacha arcs aren't actually that huge with Stamina...
Yes they are, but that's not significant. The biggest hwatcha change was the -30%(!!) jitter. Burst hwatcha is now useful at lesmok gat range. I love using the new hwatcha but it doesn't feel balanced. Atleast change to -20% original jitter.

The old carro arc of -20 degrees down was not balanced, but up 20 was fine. The carro needed a nerf but it was a bit too much. I'd prefer lower rof instead of longer reload. It didn't need the jitter increase.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:07:03 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Narayan

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 06:05:09 pm »

Also

Your constant nerfs to balance game play wont change the fact that the players who play as a team will win, the people with mics who communicate well will do better, and your always going to have at least half the population of this game who have no interest in teamwork and will ruin any chance of wining for themselves and the crew.

You want muse to reward people for playing poorly? This is a team based game, man.


I dont know how you got that from what i said, my point was stamina does reward people for playing poorly, making sure gunners can get thier arcs without even talking to their captians, and therefore muse is trying to make the game better for the people who dont care, and dont play as a team, just looking at the statistics of ship wins and not the reality of the crews behind them. I dont like playing with people who dont want to be part of a team, thats why im suggesting vote kick, or the ability to close slots for captians. You know when you have gotten a bad apple even in the lobby before the game starts.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:12:21 pm by Narayan »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 07:30:42 pm »
As a gunner i usually find stamina arcs helpful when the pilot cannot get arcs rather than wont/fails to. As a pilot i have found it most helpful with communication, if the gunner calls "using stamina down" i can adjust to have them in normal arc by the time stamina runs out.

As far as the Hwacha it does seem to have got the best of stamina arcs. Maybe giving burst rounds + 40% jitter or so would work, i cant off the top of my head think what else that would break.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2015, 03:52:45 am »
If you can't beat a rocketfish with a squid then clearly not all your dogs are barking...or you are a disable squid pilot...if so, HA HAW!!!

They are a pain cause it takes forever to kill them but not unbeatable.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 04:26:19 am »
Giving burst rounds jitter would break the artemis. pls no

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 04:38:54 am »
Giving burst rounds jitter would break the artemis. pls no

This ^


Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 07:45:32 am »
It may or may not have been Muses intention to create an easy button by implementing stamina. If that was the intent it has failed, at least as far as brawling goes. Timing stamina reloads between ships and on ships gives teams a massive advantage, making better co-ordination more powerful than ever. The added arcs compensate a little for this, but they add complexity of their own. Heachaspires can now shoot round corners if properly co-ordinated. Introducing new mechanics generally raises the skill ceiling not lowers it, unless the result of the new mechanic is to render large numbers of tactics no longer viable, and I don't think the recent nerfs have done that (maybe with the pyra nerf, but then only because the reduced viability impacted pseudometa builds like gat/art negatively, and the weakened pyra made so many other ships functional).

Stamina arcs do allow very good gunners to help carry a match by granting a certain amount of independence from idiot pilots. But it isn't a massive change and this only applies when you are flying with a pilot who doesn't have a clue. If your pilot does have a clue you are saving stamina for reloads a lot of the time anyway. DPS is more important than better arcs.

As for galleons being unapproachable, I consider the galleon weak at the moment. Maybe I'm biased because any time I see a galleon I just bring my lumberfish and since 9/10 my lumberjack gunner is better than theirs (if they have the sense to put a lumberjack on it in the first place), all that galleon is is one giant target. Are you still trying to blend hwachagalleons? Alternatively go kill / attack squid and make sure not to get shot by anything over than the rear gun. Galleon cant out position a squid using moonshine, claw and stamina if it is flown right.

A small hwacha nerf (if Muse are reading this please for the love of hamsters make this a small change, you can nerf it over two patches if you have to) might be reasonable. The hwachafish seems to be emerging as a new meta and burst hwacha might be a shade too powerful at the moment. Not sure how to do it though. Heavy hwacha is now rather ineffective (a perfect shot with all rockets landing at effective range doesn't necessarily cause any disables), that might be intentional though, I'm not sure it is supposed to be a sniper weapon. Maybe I need to revise my notion of 'effective range'. Maybe reduce the ammo size by one? How does that impact rounding for the various ammo types? Definitely not giving burst rounds jitter, the artemis has been nerfed enough as it is.

I think a lot of former blenderfish pilots are reacting very poorly to the most recent nerfs just as many pyra pilots reacted badly to the set before last. If you bring the same tactics to a different game you are going to have a tough time, and the game has changed.

I would like more control over who joins my ship, and who pilots for me. Maybe a way to reward positive behaviour though? Track a 'communication fraction' of some kind recording how often pilots brief their crews in lobby (the really bad ones don't say anything), recommend load outs, and use voice commands, and text and voice chat? Give crews the option to restrict the pilot slow to only players with a certain communication fraction. The utterly silent ones would soon find themselves without games to play until they started actually playing.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2015, 10:12:29 am »
Giving burst rounds jitter would break the artemis. pls no

Does the artemis have any jitter to add 40% to, if it is 0 or meaninglessly small adding 40% wont effect the artemis. If it has any it could be removed to make this work - i have never noticed artemis jitter being a thing.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2015, 11:23:03 am »
I remember when the game was in the state after the Mine Launcher and Mobula patch, where the Hwacha still used to hit literally everything at seemingly every range. Today it still has the same weaknesses and destroys actually even less components.
The Hwacha on the Goldfish makes it hard to outmanouver, but the Goldfish has to rely on the Hwacha and a possible side Gatling/Carronade (or even Flamer) to get any kill at all. This makes it rather predictable when rebuilding armor and guns, just time it and you barely die.
On a Spire every heavy gun has made that ship superior in strength, since they are also supported by 3 light guns aiming at the same direction.
Galleon can barely make use of any heavy gun with its limited manouverbility when up against a pilot that konws how to abuse that, but when it gets arc nearly every heavy gun enables the Galleon to give one a bad day, as long as it is a somewhat correct range but that is the risk you take when taking specific guns on any ship.
Heavy guns are also easier disabled than light guns, since they are bigger and probably harder to turn especially once they are damaged.

I actually think the Hwacha has become a little bit weaker since the patch. When taking a Spire or Goldfish with a Hwacha I could dictate the range on a greater level, making it even harder for the enemy to fight back. Since the patch Hwacha jitter has been decreased, but hitting with heavy clip or burst rounds at that distance is majorly unreliable, forcing me to go in a range where Gatlings and Carronades have an easier time beating me up instead.
But it actually still isn't as good as the Heavy Carronade, even after the nerf. It can still destroy the balloon in two shots and a dropping enemy cannot shoot back at all, Hades and Lumberjack being the only exception, but once the ship hits the ground the arcs are screwed. Balloons take longer to be rebuild than one or two engines or guns and when it is rebuild the ship might not even have arc still. Against a Pyramidion it is hard to use, but considering the current nerf of the Pyramidion and its general inability to do anything against all other ships and guns than it is probably good this way, although a Pyramidion facing a double Heavy Carronade side from a Galleon will still be demolished. What the nerf did was so the Heavy Carronade cannot solo all the ships that easily anymore, but dpending on the skill between ships it still could, and that is balance.

Now this thread is about nerfs, but Stamina is a pure buff to a lot of stuff in the game. I am personally against Stamina still, but it is not unbeatable. Gunner stamina does not increase range or dps or anything, just arcs, so escaping a ship by outrangint it is still a viable tactic. Also, when a ship with a clear advantage like the Squid fights against a Galleon, the Galleon actually has a chance to win. And here is where pilot skill still matters: Because the Galleon has a higher chance to wreck the Squid with all its heavy guns, also knowsn as Hwacha, the Squid pilot can use his own skill to make up for it, but he has to be so much more reactive and quick. A Spire which is circled by a Squid, a Junker or a Goldfish also has an easier time disabling/killing them. On that last example gunner stamina matters more, but that is ok, because a pilot can only do so much when a ship has clear disadvantages. But man, the devs really were not creative when it came to pilot and engineer stamina.

"Noobs" can win. I, a probably skilled pilot, am playing with a crew of people consisting only of my clanmembers and friends that have as much experience in being crewmembers as I have in the field of piloting and I get beaten up by that one level 8 pilot. Because he knew attacking from the side of my Pyramidion/Goldfish/Mobula is a good idea and because his crew knew that shooting is now the right decision. Of course they make some silly mistakes more often, but I see that some of these new players just understand the game and play correctly. You don't need a microphone to communicate, use voice commands, chat and for captains use captain mark (default key "B") to mark a specific target.
There are tutorials and guides online and in steam, many are outdated but the concept will always apply: When enemy armor down shoot explosive stuff. There are a wiki, which is actually up to date, and tutorials which has been worked on by Muse for a while know which actually explains a decent amount of stuff. There is a practise mode where one can figure out how guns behave and clearly find out what some ammo types do when they load them into the guns. And even then, the wilson notesm which are now open for everybody without having to shoot that one gun 10 times, are also available.
If players don't care about the game, then they will stop playing the game, no matter what. When I joined the game, I cared, so I looked it up and boom, won a majority of matches even with suboptimal loadouts and random people I never met, which have a similar amount of matches as me, while piloting without actual knowledge of guns arcs. If you know about The Sky Wolf, the community announced best pilot in the game, who apparantly figured out how to win every game, reached that stage of caring. He (probably) looked up the game or just played the tutorials and applied common sense, it is as easy as that.


Heavy hwacha is now rather ineffective (a perfect shot with all rockets landing at effective range doesn't necessarily cause any disables), that might be intentional though...
They wanted to decrease the viability of heavy clip on the Heavy Carronade, but did not know how to fix heavy clip for other guns, so I say it is not intentional. A way to "fix" the other guns was to decrease the jitter on where it matters, Hwacha in long range with its previous jitter was impossible to hit with, with the new/current heavy clip.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 11:33:47 am by Dementio »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2015, 11:50:28 am »
Personally I think heavy clip needs to be more precise. Have it take specifically subtract X degrees jitter (not percentage), and then adjust the default jitters on various guns accordingly. That was we can have both our perfectly accurate hwacha disables, and the spread-out carronade, and I will be happy.

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2015, 12:43:07 pm »
They heavy clip nerf annoyed me because it was another example of a needlessly aggressive nerf, just like the pyra hull nerf. There is a characteristic scale to the impact of heavy clip which provides you with a nice sense of what changes on different scales will do. At 0% reduction in jitter heavy clip would obviously be useless, at 100% it is as good as it can be without adding more effects. The natural scale runs from 0-100% then, and the scale is probably non-linear; 10% is largely just as useless as 0%, and even a change from 100% to 90% would substantially reduce the effective range of weapons with large spread.
Small typically means an order of magnitude less than the characteristic scale of the system. In this instance a change of 10% was probably a sensible value to try. If you wanted to be aggressive (blenderfish annoying too many novices?) then 15%. Instead we get a large change of 30%. This had an unfortunate knock on effect, it made balancing every other gun more difficult because what could have been a small nerf designed to reduce one guns effectiveness has seriously impacted multiple guns.
Constant unintended consequences are a characteristic of making large changes to non-linear systems. You can get a much better characterization of such systems by probing them with cumulative small changes which can be approximately linearized than you can from massive changes that shift the whole system to a new state.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Ok enough is enough, we need more nerfs
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2015, 01:10:21 pm »
If anyone has been following the discussions leading to the heavyclip nerf and the discussions resulted in the heavyclip nerf you know I have been against this change all along. I've pointed time after time the implications(numbers wise) of such a nerf on other weapons and illogical way of problem solving who went into designing the heavy carronade nerf through the heavyclip ammo nerf - but no one listens.

It's time for certain people in charge of game balance to come up with solutions to specific problems without creating more problems after messing around with all the balanced things.