Author Topic: Charged and Burst mines  (Read 21669 times)

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2015, 11:07:56 am »
Queso can you actually check if incendiary mines are able to ignite 2 stacks in result of a hit on aoe? Because as it is, it applies both direct and aoe damage on the hit components but seems to only have the aoe chance active. Am I just getting unlucky? or was there a work around that makes this not possible?

I think what might be happening is only aoe hits register making it only ignite once with incendiary and the damage applied is basically calculated as the aoe damage + direct damage(as a work around for getting the direct damage in the equation without having to hit directly.) without the direct damage activating an ignition chance.

Offline Queso

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2015, 12:28:38 pm »
I'll be honest, I have no idea how fire works anymore :P

Offline Watchmaker

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2015, 05:08:09 pm »
Incendiary on weapons with built-in fire chances is a little weird, and mine direct damage is a little weird.  So in total it's pretty weird.  But here's what *should* be happening:

1) Mines deal each of their primary and secondary damage as independent hits in an AoE with the usual AoE falloff described above.
2) Fire chance is calculated independently for primary and secondary, and rolled for both
3) Without incendiary, mines have a 25% chance to add 5 fire stacks *only on their secondary hit.*

Add incendiary into the mix, and you should get two independent fire rolls:
- 20% chance of +1 fire stack on the primary hit
- 45% chance of +5 fire stacks on the secondary hit

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2015, 05:13:18 pm »
Incendiary on weapons with built-in fire chances is a little weird, and mine direct damage is a little weird.  So in total it's pretty weird.  But here's what *should* be happening:

1) Mines deal each of their primary and secondary damage as independent hits in an AoE with the usual AoE falloff described above.
2) Fire chance is calculated independently for primary and secondary, and rolled for both
3) Without incendiary, mines have a 25% chance to add 5 fire stacks *only on their secondary hit.*

Add incendiary into the mix, and you should get two independent fire rolls:
- 20% chance of +1 fire stack on the primary hit
- 45% chance of +5 fire stacks on the secondary hit

Are you sure that the ignition chance is added on top of the existing fire chance of the 25% to make it 45%? The question popped up many times before and I can even recall you specifically saying it was a separate chance of 20% from the existing one.

Offline DJ Logicalia

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2015, 05:35:56 pm »
I heard that buffed mines only deal damage if they are buffed during the point of impact, not when they are fired. Sounds odd but is it true?

This should NOT be true. If any data seems to contradict this assumption then I can investigate, but a quick look through doesn't suggest any behavior of this sort.
I think this used to be true and was patched out some time ago. I could be wrong, though

Offline Watchmaker

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2015, 05:47:24 pm »
Are you sure that the ignition chance is added on top of the existing fire chance of the 25% to make it 45%? The question popped up many times before and I can even recall you specifically saying it was a separate chance of 20% from the existing one.

Yes.  It was at one point handled differently, so you may be remembering a response from that time.  However it's been this way for about a year now.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2015, 06:14:56 pm »

Actually, it will destroy the armor of only squid, spire, goldfish and mobula with one shot(non-buffed armor).
Pyramidion, junker and galleon armor will not die, because it will do 601 damage and all of those ships have more armor than that. Unless you buffed your loch mine and then only galleon armor can survive it.

Ofcourse! But you have to add in bits of battle here and there, you dont SOLELY use the lochnagar mine, theres other guns too that probably withled the armor. And on a spire, the probability of that is grand. 601 is a number i dont know is completely true because on buffed pyra the armor goes down to like 10% remaining or so. But still good chunk greater than half the armor. Perhaps it just looks like that and so the numbers are true. But in anycase, panic lochnagar does make the ship enemy ship go WTF and their armor wont be coming up any time because of that.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2015, 07:33:31 pm »
If primary damage is added to impact, does the burst radius start at the ship as opposed to 20 meters away?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 07:36:12 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2015, 08:27:22 pm »
If primary damage is added to impact, does the burst radius start at the ship as opposed to 20 meters away?

I would assume not, because the center of the projectile explosion is at the mine location, and not the first spot it hits the ship at. It's like the mechanic on any other projectile hit, I wouldn't think mines will be any exception. Also, logically thinking it makes more sense for the distance to be measured from the mine detonation location.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2015, 10:51:35 pm »
More testing   :D
1's5's6'snormal
0313
2322
2123
0421
0222
0304
0512
1211
0414
Averages
0.5531.332.44

The table is showing the number of each stack size set on a pyramidion by an incendiary mine and the number set by a normal mine. The mines were striking just to the side of the helm and hitting all components (hitting them with the "beak" spares the engines).
The averages are about in line with the 25%-45% change. Incendiary mines do seem to cause significant extra fires as they should.


....

There is not even a valid point in comparing and contrasting loch and charged due to their different arming ranges - charged will simply not be useful within ~165m of range while lochnagar will still be useful and be able to "buy you time" as I stated before. Another point you forgot to mention though is that you are unable to do anything with charged when the armor is down to damage the hull while with loch you are practically able to get them down to 50% of their health.

As to burst being effective in the sense of damaging more components, I still count that as less effective than charged doing more damage to armor, balloon and hull which helps you more with your higher multipliers of 0.8,1.8 and 1.5 respectively in comparison to the 0.6 of guns and engines multiplier.

....

As for junker size, the exact length from the center of the light engines hitbox to the center of hitbox of the front gun on the Z axis is 36.189m so that could give you an approximation of the junker's size.

....


I think the direct-charged to loch comparison depends on where the mine is, on the side of a junker paired with another mine charged is useless inside its arming time, on the front of a pyra paired with say a banshee direct charged hits are a short range Gatling substitute that can strip armor for the other gun or a ram. Its probably still not as good as loch but that's the tradeoff for +30% damage at charged arming range.

I wont say burst is as good (until you put it in a minefield where its #1) but the engine and gun damage is meaningful, proportional impact damage is about equal to non hull components because armor has less health than balloon and components have less health than (average) armor. Guns and engines have 200/425 and 300/525 health respectively, standard mine component damage is 85 so a burst mine will take about 28% of a ships turning power (the largest effect). With a single mine the effect isn't that great but it stacks up faster than other types when chain reacting mines.

Where do you find the dimensions of the ships? the most i can see anywhere is the profile area for the hull/balloon.


If you fly into it a loch mine wont break the mobula's armor either because it loses damage to AoE outside 15m and the trigger range is 20m. 5/15 meters of loss is 1/3 of the 80% max loss so does only 73.3% of its damage (165% of standard mine damage).

On an odd note does anyone know why the "+" (plus) symbol refuses to show up when i preview posts?

Edit: another odd thing i have noticed is overkill armor damage from mine chain reactions still causing no hull damage, do mines triggered at once apply all their damage in the same instant rather than the primary then secondary way most guns do (allowing secondary to do hull)? or have i been setting up tests that do exactly the armor damage time after time?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 10:56:21 pm by Daft Loon »

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2015, 05:01:08 am »
Where do you find the dimensions of the ships? the most i can see anywhere is the profile area for the hull/balloon.

If you fly into it a loch mine wont break the mobula's armor either because it loses damage to AoE outside 15m and the trigger range is 20m. 5/15 meters of loss is 1/3 of the 80% max loss so does only 73.3% of its damage (165% of standard mine damage).

Edit: another odd thing i have noticed is overkill armor damage from mine chain reactions still causing no hull damage, do mines triggered at once apply all their damage in the same instant rather than the primary then secondary way most guns do (allowing secondary to do hull)? or have i been setting up tests that do exactly the armor damage time after time?

The data is not available publicly anymore.

I was assuming perfect conditions of no damage falloff, which certainly happen if you just land the mine in-between the ship hit-box and 15m away from it.

Yeah, I believe what Watchmaker was saying before about the direct and aoe damage being calculated together in the aoe hit. So it could very well be that the values are just added together at one instance rather than two consecutive ones.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Charged and Burst mines
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2015, 06:49:09 pm »
Yet more testing  :D

How to trigger mines:
Mercury - 2 shots, 1 charged
Hades - 5 shots
Banshee - 4 shots
Artemis - 2 shots
Light flak - 3 shots - with heavy clip to actually hit this seems to be the fastest outside mercury arcs
Flare - too many - mines seem to not take fire stacks to balloon or "hull"
Gatling - 15 shots
Light Carronade - 9 shots - standard mine range with heavy clip.

Mercury and Artemis are always good and with heavy clip banshee, light flak and Gatling are too.
Probably the best way to make use of burst mines.

Fun fact: With stamina arcs and a mine launcher on the bottom of a spire you can loch yourself in the balloon.