Author Topic: Underdog System  (Read 10065 times)

Offline Dementio

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2015, 05:22:35 pm »
I will always say, get the gunner a second engineer equipment slot and you are guaranteed to see at least one per ship.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2015, 05:26:27 pm »
Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?

I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.

Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.

I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.

We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.

Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.

One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.

While everyone else reloads the old way.


BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.

Offline David Dire

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2015, 05:28:07 pm »
Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?

I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.

Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.

I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.

We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.

Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.

One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.

While everyone else reloads the old way.


BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.

But that's using logic.


We can't do that here with Muse.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2015, 05:31:01 pm »
Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?

I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.

Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.

I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.

We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.

Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.

One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.

While everyone else reloads the old way.


BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.

But that's using logic.


We can't do that here with Muse.


just do it theres this claim they go through with this stuff because not enough of us spam them to NOT.
If the majority of emails is "get rid of stamina" and they still keep it. Then you can complain.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:14:52 pm by Keyvias »

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2015, 11:42:01 pm »
Can we keep this thread to complaining about/suggesting and discussing solutions for the underdog system. There are other threads where you can whinge about stamina allready.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2015, 12:15:07 am »
The biggest issue with underdog is it is outlining a problem but not offering a solution.

"Your match is unbalanced. We figure you will lose."

"Ok... so how can we fix that? Do we get a buff?"

"....."

"Well then, not staying in this lobby. Bye."

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2015, 12:25:24 am »
There is also the problem of the difference between "this match will be challenging for red team" which is on the edge of underdog/not underdog where the current system struggles with accuracy and "Red team is almost certainly going to lose" where the system identifies it more accurately but does nothing.
The existence of underdog win achievements indicates that they want the first case to exist as much as the second.

Offline The Sky Wolf

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2015, 04:54:57 pm »
Nobody is making sense in this thread. The Underdog system works fine by letting the weaker team get away scot-free if they lose. If you were expecting an actual ship buff for being an Underdog then you must be insane. Not everyone that is new is a bad player off the bat, some of them do the tutorial. Imagine giving a low MMR clan (Low MMR only because of lag, joke ship builds, helping noob friends) a ship buff against slightly higher MMR opponents who aren't as good or are equally as good but have a higher MMR only because they stomp noobs all day and nothing else. That would allow the low MMR clan to murder hardcore because they now have an unfair advantage; and even if they manage to suffer a loss it wouldn't count.

Stamina is already a super fun, super balanced, super useful feature.


You kids today don't understand that the gunner's best strength is consistency. His job is to constantly apply pressure to the enemy... Not repair... Just soley dish out damage to cripple and kill the enemy to prevent him from killing you, and the gunner stamina helps with that ALOT. Turning the turret further allows you to keep up with enemy ships out of reach and keep applying pressure even when your captain isn't facing the enemy.

 Reloading faster allows you to give the enemy little time to breathe by shortening your reload time. If you add up all the extra damage done over time you'll see that gunners do about the same amount of added damage as a buff engineer with this stamina system. Don't forget gunners also get 3 ammo choices... people don't understand how OP that is... You can use lesmok for long range to start doing damage from distance (getting the first hit matters alot), then you can swap to a shorter range/higher DPS ammo when they're close.

People forget to add up all the potential damaging & crippling they could've been doing if they had lesmok along with their greased rounds.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2015, 06:29:52 pm »
MMR is NOT calculated from the player Levels
MMR is NOT calculated from the number of matchs
MMR is NOT calculated from the win ratio

MMR is calculated a modified of Glicko2 system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system
This was explained numerous times, in many threads and Dev Fire chats.
MMR is re-calculated after every match depending on the result. Changes are dependant on Ratings deviations and the ratings of both teams. Read on Wikipedia for the details.

Like The Sky wolf explained: the Underdog rewards the underdogs IF they win. Not by giving them bonuses.
However I do find the reliability of the Underdog calculation questionable from the games I've played since system went live.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2015, 06:53:04 pm »
Hmm.... reading through how Glicko works, I see a giant flaw in the underdog system. Ships (and their builds) are not counted as players, and are thus not rated. That is giving incomplete data. To give a true underdog rating, each ship and approximate build would have to be treated as a 5th player on each crew.

Also, Mattilald, my point about bonuses was just what I have been asked by new players. They literally asked if they got some sort of handicap buff. When told no, and explained what it did.... they left. People learn fast what the underdog means, and leave lobbies just as fast.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2015, 07:07:44 pm »
The biggest issue with underdog is it is outlining a problem but not offering a solution.

"Your match is unbalanced. We figure you will lose."

"Ok... so how can we fix that? Do we get a buff?"

"....."

"Well then, not staying in this lobby. Bye."

Apparently underdogs that lose don't have that loss count towards their stats.

How that translates though is confusing to me. As your stats only count wins. Hence if you lose. Its not a win that adds to the tally.

Knowing your lose rate is simply total matches-matches won=losses.

So... what does underdog actually do to lower  the loss quota? Does it not count an underdog loss as a match to add to the match count?




should ships and their builds count though? Unless the system looks into the popularity of some builds and the success of each and every variation. It all falls into subjectivity. And the feat for a system to quickly check THE FULL HISTORY OF A SPECIFIC BUILD OUT OF A BAZZILION VARIATIONS.

Seems like some serious busy work. Hence I kinda understand why its not counted. Besides vets know to use meta or mock builds as they see fit.

The build for the most part doesnt matter is the crew and competence of the pilots ability to be strategic.

I mean I've won with a double flare quick before. And flares arent exactly meta.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 07:14:16 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2015, 07:16:27 pm »
When I first heard of underdog from the blog post http://gunsoficarus.com/blog/chewing-on-some-stats/#more-7147
I thought it was a great idea if it was a hidden system. Tell them they're underdog and give them the badge after the match not before.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 07:24:47 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2015, 07:50:42 pm »
Max, stop being wrong all the time.

Not sure why you quoted me, then wrote nothing that actually addressed the quote.

I said it was missing data throwing the rating. I did not even say it should If you knew anything about Glicko, which my non-quoted post addressed, you would know how it treats unrated players and quickly incorporates them with the rating after just a few matches. No previous tracking needed. It just starts looking at a certain ship/build as if it were a player, and starts calculating. Popular builds that do well get ranked high very fast. Others can be forgotten if they are used little and unsuccessfully (basically treated as unranked every time).

By the way, Mobula and Junker have 248,832 possible builds. Pyra has 20,736. Squid has 1,728. Goldfish has 720. Spire has 8640. Galleon has 90,000 (I think).

That is a total of 619,488 build possibilities. That is not a very large chunk of data to today's servers. Very possible to track every single one as if it were a player.

Finally, I very much doubt if you took flares against an equally skilled team and won. And of course the crew matters. That is what the other FOUR MMRs are for. Take a silly, low MMR ship, with a good crew, and it will still give the other team 'underdog' if they are low enough MMR.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2015, 08:06:25 pm »
As man weapon not, but you are taking a flaregun on one of the utility slots, because knowing where enemies are is crucial no matter what range you choose.

They haven't divulged the exact specifics (to my knowledge) what they are using in calculating team MMR (as opposed to player MMR).

As of visiblitiy of the Underdog status before the game start, I share my concern on the effect on the underdog team (especially, after hiding levels, so lover levels didn't feel intimidated).

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Underdog System
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2015, 10:12:17 pm »
the apparent "solution" was the loss as underdog doesn't count towards your stats. You didn't notice that concept being in the same wave length as your rant about no solution given by the system that is underdog?

kinda weak solution but whatever. I'm just after the prizes.


also the heck are those crown thing on the first 2 underdog win achieves? Thought they were badges but apparently not.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 10:14:35 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »