Heavy Carronade

[BlackenedPies]

The heavy carro has a rate of fire of .83 shots per second. This is high considering that 2 shots deal more than the 1200 health of balloon.

1200 health is high compared to the next highest- main engine at 525. Because balloons have very high health they take long to rebuild and repair. A damaged balloon is a decisive disadvantage.

I think that the reload or time between shots should be increased. If time between shots were increased it would be easier to mallet balloon between shots. Everyone knows the blender fish.

[Dementio]

If you nerf the Heavy Carronade than the light one will be more dangerous.

[Hoja Lateralus]

I am for nerfing both a bit. Increasing time between shots could do a trick.

[ZnC]

Well, a few arguments here. But mainly, I don't agree the Heavy Carronade should be touched at all.

Changing the rate of fire would not help much because buffed Heavy Clip will still take down the Balloon. Reload time would not do much to help the Balloon either, it will still go down on the first clip, only its overall DPS will be reduced. What you might be asking for is a severe damage nerf, which will prevent the Carronade from popping balloons in one clip even when buffed.

Goldfish is the only ship with enough mobility to bring the Heavy Carronade close enough. A meta-Galleon uses it defensively, and with the acceleration buff, it can go on a Spire but we have yet to see much of it. The Goldfish can be countered - Pyramidion is a classic way to beat it because of it's protected Balloon and superior firepower against the Goldfish.

The Heavy Carronade has 425m range, and the challenge is being able to get the Goldfish close enough without getting disabled or killed. You also need time to ground out and kill the enemy while the other enemy ship(s) bombard you. In my opinion, the fact that Balloons require high maintenance and there are altitude battles makes GOIO interesting.

[MightyKeb]

I think heavy guns should be sidegrades to their light counterparts. Look at HF, it does insane damage yet is affected by ballistics as much as Lumberjack, which serves a different purpose than Scylla. Hwacha may be a beast of its own but in my mind it will always be 4 artemises shoved in one gun. Heavy carronade? Simply outdoes, outguns AND outranges light (they may have the same range with heavy clip but H. Carro suffers less) I think the best balance change would be to make them both a beast of their own, either have them serve same purposes but with different aspects (light v heavy flak) or alienate its use from the light (lumberjack amd hwacha)

 

[Arturo Sanchez]

I think heavy guns should be sidegrades to their light counterparts. Look at HF, it does insane damage yet is affected by ballistics as much as Lumberjack, which serves a different purpose than Scylla. Hwacha may be a beast of its own but in my mind it will always be 4 artemises shoved in one gun. Heavy carronade? Simply outdoes, outguns AND outranges light (they may have the same range with heavy clip but H. Carro suffers less) I think the best balance change would be to make them both a beast of their own, either have them serve same purposes but with different aspects (light v heavy flak) or alienate its use from the light (lumberjack amd hwacha)

vague suggestions are kinda useless. Unless you actually suggest specifically what to do, nothing is solved.


But in anycase. The heavy carro does have a larger range than the light one. I often use it in mid range fights when I'm facing off against meta brawlers.

Nerf the range to a slightly bigger range than the light version and the whining should cease, as the skill of the pilot being extended even farther should muffled complaints about it. After all, if you let it get in its nerfed range, it's you own fault.


In a similar manner to the metamidion getting arc on you. If you let a ship as sluggish as that outpace you, its your fault that that death occurs.

[MightyKeb]

I think heavy guns should be sidegrades to their light counterparts. Look at HF, it does insane damage yet is affected by ballistics as much as Lumberjack, which serves a different purpose than Scylla. Hwacha may be a beast of its own but in my mind it will always be 4 artemises shoved in one gun. Heavy carronade? Simply outdoes, outguns AND outranges light (they may have the same range with heavy clip but H. Carro suffers less) I think the best balance change would be to make them both a beast of their own, either have them serve same purposes but with different aspects (light v heavy flak) or alienate its use from the light (lumberjack amd hwacha)

vague suggestions are kinda useless. Unless you actually suggest specifically what to do, nothing is solved.


But in anycase. The heavy carro does have a larger range than the light one. I often use it in mid range fights when I'm facing off against meta brawlers.

Nerf the range to a slightly bigger range than the light version and the whining should cease, as the skill of the pilot being extended even farther should muffled complaints about it. After all, if you let it get in its nerfed range, it's you own fault.


In a similar manner to the metamidion getting arc on you. If you let a ship as sluggish as that outpace you, its your fault that that death occurs.

It's meant to be built on, if people dont like the concept of the idea in the first place then any efforts to support it and go into detail are rendered futile and impractical. I'd happily convey all sorts of ideas, but its frustrating to have to express yourself on a mobile phone.

[BlackenedPies]

The issue isn't solely the heavy carronade, it's the difference in skill required to balloon lock and to escape balloon lock. In pub matches popping a balloon once means death. That doesn't sound fair considering that with heavy clip it's the lowest skill highest powered gun in the game.

Simply killing the blender before they get in range is not an acceptable option for pubs. With light guns this requires a merc or good hades and enough explosive to deal 1100 hull damage. Having one ship to 'counter' blending (pyra) is also not acceptable. Why should every other ship die after getting popped once including the pyra.

The heavy carronade almost instantly pops balloon every 5.5 seconds. That is very powerful even for a heavy weapon considering there's no skill required to shoot the highest projectile speed gun with no drop. I'd love to change balloon health/damage but that is not a simple fix.

[Kamoba]

Hmm I think increasing time between shots would not be such a bad thing and may actually help players with their aim...
Very often I notice people don't actually shoot the gun at its full speed, obviously some people do shoot as quick as they can but precision shooting often means a wait between shots, not that painful a Nerf assuming its done to an extreme.

However as Daniel said, nerfing heavy carro would make the light carro more effective...

If reload time is increased this would allow for more balloon repairs, again a minor Nerf would not be the death of the gun, it would just mean pilots spending more time keeping the gun in arc for longer periods of time and less room for error on the pilots side, which could be a good thing..

But I cant say if I think heavy carro needs the Nerf or not...
Assuming players counter it with distance and disable (Artemis, merc, heavy clip Gatling, flare gun {if not chemed} etc etc) then it looses its potential...

So to sum up...
I'm not against a minor Nerf but can see it being majorly needed... Just that it is being used more often on more builds..

[BlackenedPies]

On most maps there is enough cover for a blender fish to avoid ranged fire. They pop balloon once and the battle is over. The same could be said with burst hwatcha but that requires getting much closer with much more skill and a very lengthy reload. 1 v 1 disable is what goldfish do best but the heavy carro makes it too easy in pub matches.

The fact is that the heavy carro requires virtually no skill to shoot and has high shots per second relative to its damage. The main issue is heavy clip. If heavy clip only gave 1 shot the carro would be more balanced and make gunners viable. Gunners are not viable relative to spanner mallet buff.

A minor nerf would still keep the carro prevalent. Even a bigger nerf like 8 second reload would not be a radical change. 8 seconds to instantly pop a balloon from 425m doesn't sound outrageous to me. Increasing time between shots would serve a similar purpose and allow engineers to prepare for the next shot. Like chem spraying under the assumption that it will break.

[Lanliss]

First off, I do not think that something being used more is a reason to nerf it. Does not make sense to me. That being said, in terms of a nerf, how does weakening the heavy carro make the light carro more powerful? More viable maybe, but weakening one does not make the other stronger. Another problem I have is ZanC's first post.

Changing the rate of fire would not help much because buffed Heavy Clip will still take down the Balloon.

How is that a reason for a nerf not to work? I may be reading it wrong, but in my head it reads as "making it less useful will not work, because these things that make it more powerful will still make it more powerful." Existing buff items should not be a reason for a nerf not to work, because a nerf will still apply. Sure, they will still deal the damage, but that is what they are supposed to do. If you go to the work to buff a gun, and load heavy into it, you have every right to expect it to deal more damage. As I said, maybe I just read it wrong, and am being completely unreasonable. If so, I am sorry. I can only react to that which I perceive.

[Kamoba]

@Lanliss, yes I meant viability.
Basically if the heavy carro became less efficient then there would be less reason to choose heavy carro over light carro, I should have worded it better.

Pies: You bring up good points but I am still on the fence of being unsure, the reload time does make sense to me, but I keep thinking, is it needed from a balance pov...
Yes keeping to cover in most maps is very possible and saves the carro from disable, but since you mentioned the gun being too powerful in pub matches, the next thing to keep in mind is, how many pub pilots use cover to their advantage? Not so many, the carronade is powerful in powerful hands, but so is any weapon and ship.

[BlackenedPies]

I think it is needed from a balance pov because a competent blender can lock down a pub with too little effort. My concern is simply how easy it is for one pop to be the end. Either balloon locking or escaping balloon lock must be changed for balance. The gap between skill requirements is too much. Dumb easy vs damn impossible.

Sure pubs might not use cover but most pubs can't kill a fish faster than the fish can rush in. One scrub ship won't kill a competent fish at long range. When the fish gets in range scrubs are dead and getting balloon locked is not fun. Pop, die. Fun. The light carro isn't much better. They have incredible range and speed for being shotguns.

Maybe the h carro advantage over light carro should be the speed of the pop. In that case reducing rof wouldn't be right but I don't see a problem with increasing reload. Or are we gonna sit back and say the blender fish is balanced in pub matches. That really helps scrubs stick around. Pubs get instantly balloon locked with no chance of escaping. Someone please explain why that's balanced.

[BlackenedPies]

Or how about reducing downward arc? It would require more skill to use and would make it easier to temporarily get guns back on the blender. The ability to stay 15 degrees above and balloon lock is comparatively too much.

None of these suggestions would make carronades any less viable. If any changes were implemented there would be a lot of loud complaining at first while reasonable players explain it's no less viable and only requires playing a bit smarter.

Right now I'm leaning towards reducing down arc. That doesn't sound unreasonable for a gun that keeps them below you. The same could be done with the light carro. Do they even need down arc.

[Hoja Lateralus]

It is similar discussion as with flamethrower

Except flamethrower can be (remotely?) easy countered by chemspray. Carronade, when in range, can be only less painful when you take the chute.

First off, I do not think that something being used more is a reason to nerf it. Does not make sense to me

That's not fully the case. The problem is that there is a tool/solution that is very easy to use but also very powerful. Therefore, many players decide to choose the easy-and-effective option and use mostly that tool/solution. Also it's a matter of scale, what does it mean "used more" - is it used 40% of the time? 50? 70?That's why we got pyramidion nerf, which got like 80ish percent of tournament builds before the nerf (but pyra is still very commonly used ship) and that's why we should at least consider nerfing the carronades.