chem spray: Perfect, or a little too powerful?

[Lanliss]

Chem spray is amazing. Complete fire immunity, plenty of time in between for repairs. But what if it got changed? I think it could use a tiny nerf, to break up the monotony of circling the pyra. What if it only defended against a certain number of stacks? I am not sure of the math, but it could be rigged so that it lasts just enough stacks that a chem cycle on the pyra can keep it up. If you stop to repair, you will take a little fire for it. Then there are the ammos that add stacks in one way or another, which would cause it to last less time. Maybe add a bit more adrenaline. My exact plan might be a bit too much of a nerf, but I am sure people will agree that having complete impenetrable fire immunity is a little ridiculous. Any other ideas are welcome.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Chemspray is fine as it is, the extinguisher is underpowered. Also, pyramidion is not the best example because it's really elegantly designed and engineering on it is very easy and logical. As a main you can spray all bottom deck very easily. But take a look at junker, for example. It's not so logical and easy anymore. If you want to break a routine of chemsprays I'd rather think about some kind of extinguisher buff rather than chemspray nerf.

[Crafeksterty]

Yeah, i would like an extinguisher buff because i hate using the chemspray as an engineer. I simply dont like the safety from fire, but rather fight fire.

Best extinguisher buff i think is 0 cooldown.
But it cannot extinguish during cooldown.

To buff it further
It can extinguish during cooldown.

But thats then the line i think it gets too powerfull. Maybe... it seems balanced just enough in my head, but enough to not pick chemspray for the most of times.

[Kamoba]

As OP as we all claim Chemspray to be, it's not overpowered, its just so much better than ext it has to be sold as a magical tool, someone takes all flamer squid or double flamer pyra? Chemspray will be perfect, but swap one flamer for a carronade and suddenly the rebuild and chemspray becomes too much, making it a great combo, and showing the chemsprays weakness, rebuilds.

Personally I'd like an Ext buff, so that I don't have to cry when I have a crew of engineers who refuse load outs because they prefer ext and the enemy is a flamer squid...

[BlackenedPies]

I don't think removing the flame cooldown would be enough. When under constant flame and you're tanking a component it makes little difference from 2 sec cooldown + immunity. I think it should have a 5 or 6 second immunity to make it viable but still inferior to chem. If chem is OP then flames are plain ridiculous.

[ZnC]

I don't think either needs a change, and actually think extinguisher is better because it's more versatile.

In the other recent chem vs extinguisher thread I stated my reasons. The first is chem spray only being really essential against flamer suppression. Second is if something actually catches fire in the heat of battle, it is very inefficient for chem to extinguish. Anything that has >10 stacks of fire will take over 20 seconds to extinguish, and still take a lot of damage - something you can solve in a click with extinguisher. Obviously this does not stop incoming fire stacks, which currently only the flamer can significantly dish out.

[BlackenedPies]

Oh ZanC we shall break you of that mentality yet!

The only thing the extinguisher works better at is if they only have flares. Presumably when you start an engagement you will have around an initial 20s immunity. Chem is mandatory on the hull of every ship except the mobula for the same reason the hull needs spanner mallet (except squid). You should also chem the hull before it goes down to give you immunity when it gets back up. If you're facing banshee, hades, flame or I'd say even any explosive weapon chem is mandatory if your goal is efficiency. If you're not facing hades banshee or flame you might get by with using extinguisher. Even then it's not max efficient if you're getting shot by explosive.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

[ZnC]

@BlackenedPies: It would be pretty hard to convince me out of this.

The situations I often find myself in are much more chaotic; perfect engagements don't always happen especially if both teams are equally strong. I used to practice chem 100% of the time, but I ran into too many situations where I thought: "damn, an extinguisher would have been so much faster."

When an engagement starts, things will get disabled and damage will be taken. In the time taken to rebuild important components and do some repairs, chem will wear off. If the engagement goes smoothly and nothing else gets damaged you can run chem cycle. But in reality, more damage will be taken, chem will wear off, the hull and balloon might catch fire while you were rebuilding, other things will also get disabled. As chem has a longer cooldown and weak extinguish, it is less efficient when damage is taken.

I prioritize flexibility and optimal time management instead of maximum ship efficiency. I guess this is pretty similar to my gunning creed: "Prioritize hitting the target before optimizing damage."

[Ayetach]

I would say like the relevance of a gunner based on builds and ship tactics, the use of extinguisher as it is - would be deployed based on builds and ship tactics.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I don't like chem on Squid builds. There is so much repairing that happens on them where Chem cycles break. Not to mention you want engineers ready to man guns in a moment's notice, not running around chemming everything. It takes them time to get from far engines back to guns. If cycles drop, because engines are so weak on the ship, it severely cripples the vessel. When cycles drop, this happens and pretty soon you've got dead engines left and right and dead in the air. Can't have people waiting on chem spam or letting parts die. Better to fly evasive and run all extinguish than to have a ship wreaked with fire and waiting on cooldowns.

[Indreams]

Can't have people waiting on chem spam or letting parts die. Better to fly evasive and run all extinguish than to have a ship wreaked with fire and waiting on cooldowns.

I agree.

Pilots are also a large part of firefighting.

Unmanageable and destructive fire only really happen through the flamethrower. It is pilot's duty to evade away from flamethrower arc, or back out of the hot zone before the engi's chem cycle breaks.

One can't fly near Cake mobula and complain that the engineers aren't doing their job. Pilots need to help Engineers repair by avoiding fire hazards.

[Arturo Sanchez]

Here's a nerf for chem spray.

10+ stack means chem spray simply stops working to extinguish. It does however freezes the stack as it cannot rise any higher. It just wont ever go down.

If anyone hasn't noticed I was taking a piss. proper chem patterns are not so simply done as you must balance repairing and maintaining that chem.

It's weakness? Other types of damage and its obviously possibly fatal cool down. There is a reason many ships do not dual wield the same kinda guns on a single side.

If you're relying on flame dmg so much then clearly you are using your ship incorrectly. Or as it often happens in this game, you got counter picked.

As for the chem vs extinguisher thing. Chem cool down is the difference between a broken part or not. While an extinguisher can instantly recover lost dmg to prevent that break. There are instances where you are locked into a part and extinguisher is where it is best utilised.

pros and cons on every side. You can't fault a player for playing their part too well.

[Kamoba]

Chem Nerf not needed, or else any flame weapon would be too OP.
Although Chem Spray is much more effective at its job, nerfing it would make it too ineffective and flamers would create more complaint problems than they do now, banshees, flaks and Hades would become new meta.
Extinguisher buff to make it a little more effective, some good suggestions in here for how to do that.

[David Dire]

Chem Nerf not needed, or else any flame weapon would be too OP.
Although Chem Spray is much more effective at its job, nerfing it would make it too ineffective and flamers would create more complaint problems than they do now, banshees, flaks and Hades would become new meta.
Extinguisher buff to make it a little more effective, some good suggestions in here for how to do that.

I think both are balanced fine. The chem spray would be OP, but, look at it's cooldown, that's a lot of damage you may have to take before you can repair a component.

Fire Extinguisher can keep everything pretty healthy from a Flamer attack, and allow you to get away, unlike Chem if you're caught by surprise.