Author Topic: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..  (Read 15351 times)

Offline Caprontos

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Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« on: March 08, 2015, 08:57:47 am »
Several have said it, and idk what topics so un... People say gunner isn't fair because gunner has one less option then other classes.. because of standard ammo

Basically.. Engineer and pilot have 3 of their class, 1 of each others class, and then 2 ammo choices.. while gunner gets 1 of the other classes items + 3 ammo.. So only one less compared to them.

What if they just remove the pilot and engineer ammo choice, and let the pilot pick the ships "Standard ammo" on the ship loadout?

This way the pilot and engineer get one ammo (from the ship loadout) and the gunner gets his three choices..  Also make standard ammo an actual ammo.

This also has the added effect, that your engineers can't bring different ammo so the gunners options maybe more useful then a third engineer. Also I guess AI would use whatever ammo you have as "Standard"..

Thoughts?

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 09:40:40 am »
Its been suggested numerus times now

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 10:22:13 am »
Legit suggestion, woe to those whose pilot picks loch as standard ammo, but yes I like that idea! :)

Offline Replaceable

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 10:26:42 am »
Gr8

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 10:45:32 am »
If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.

Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2015, 11:19:26 am »
If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.

Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.

It reloads the ammo selected. Every ship has this, so while a buff.. everyone has this buff.. and I think it should be this way right now..

It was for a few months like.. early last year or late 2 years ago.. and it was fantastic. So its already possible to change if they wanted to.. Basicly it was whatever ammo was last loaded in to the gun, would reload in to the gun as long as the person who emptied it had the ammo.. Didn't matter if you left the gun or not once it started to reload.. as long as someone without the ammo or AI didn't touch it it'd reload with your ammo.


Another buff is gunner in theory has 4 ammo - while everyone else has 1 (maybe a balance issue but.. since ammo is less relevant then tools - its debatable if its a major negitive or.. just more gunner buff). - Something to consider..

Major nerf is Engineers and pilot  could only use the default ship ammo - This means all three engi ships only have one ammo on board.. So if you want ammo diversity you have to have a gunner to get it..

This leads to a lot of crew balance changes (or at lest people have to re-think it).. Like pyra - gunner isn't useful on a pyra usually because.. you don't need more then one ammo to use most light guns effectively.. but if you have two light guns that use two different ammo's.. Then the only way to have both used efficiently - is to have a gunner.


Legit suggestion, woe to those whose pilot picks loch as standard ammo, but yes I like that idea! :)
Standard loch... that would be.. Loch for gunner only ammo? no? haha..:P



Offline Replaceable

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2015, 11:20:34 am »
If such a system were put in place, how would you handle reloads? It would require changing, as currently if you leave a gun before it's done, it reloads standard ammo.

Just reload the selected ammo? That's a bit of a hidden buff.
Default to standard like always? You get two ammo, in a really odd way.

Gun doesn't reload unless you are on it when it finishes. If you miss it you have to reload again.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 12:06:48 pm »
Quote
It reloads the ammo selected. Every ship has this, so while a buff.. everyone has this buff.. and I think it should be this way right now..

That's fair. It would definitely have to be a thing if this "only one ammo for engie/pilot" was done. I would miss the "reload mini-game" though, hah. Also buffs engies as they can reload while leaving a gun. Lets them go off and repair.

Quote
Another buff is gunner in theory has 4 ammo - while everyone else has 1 (maybe a balance issue but.. since ammo is less relevant then tools - its debatable if its a major negative or.. just more gunner buff). - Something to consider..

Not really a buff. Past the 4 gunners get now (including standard), you get diminishing returns because boats just don't have that much gun variety when they are built. That and how a gunner plays (at least on my boats) it's good as is.

Quote
Major nerf is Engineers and pilot  could only use the default ship ammo - This means all three engi ships only have one ammo on board.. So if you want ammo diversity you have to have a gunner to get it..

Now the way this was worded, you make it sound like you only want pilots/engies having standard ammo. I thought the idea was either that, or one specialized ammo and no standard (either or).

Quote
Gun doesn't reload unless you are on it when it finishes. If you miss it you have to reload again.

That sounds fairly harsh for all crew involved. I wouldn't be up for that personally. This game has enough mechanics to learn as is.

I'm of the mind that gunners are perfectly fine as is, and need no special attention. I like that there is choice (three engie, one gunner two engie) so long as it's balanced. Figured id put that out there moving forward. I won't say that this idea is horrible and shouldn't be done, but yea.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2015, 01:23:42 pm »
I am against removing default standard ammo in anyway.

Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them, but then we are talking about ships like a Metamidion, which I believe to be already very weak or Metajunkers that apparantly get killed by anything with a Carronade.

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 02:45:44 pm »
Now the way this was worded, you make it sound like you only want pilots/engies having standard ammo. I thought the idea was either that, or one specialized ammo and no standard (either or).

I mean, The pilot would pick the one ammo the ship has in the ship loadout screen.. So rather then every ship being pre-loaded with standard (which you could pick) - you would pick any of the existing ammo.. and that would be the ammo on the ships guns..

So like a two art one hades junker.. If you pick burst, your engineers on the arts have burst as usual.. but the hades has burst, so if you want lesmonk hades you have to have a gunner.

Mostly it just weakens three engineer and buffs two enginer one gunner.. in more situations.. I assume anyways..

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I'm of the mind that gunners are perfectly fine as is, and need no special attention. I like that there is choice (three engie, one gunner two engie) so long as it's balanced. Figured id put that out there moving forward. I won't say that this idea is horrible and shouldn't be done, but yea.

I don't disagree, as the gunner does work as intended on the guns that benefit a lot from multiple ammo's. but it does seem Muse's desire is to see more gunner use in more situations (hence stamina..) - So this is just I guess another side idea to effect gunners use.. To make them more useful or appealing in more situations..

I don't care actually to much about gunner cause I don't like to be a gunner usually, but... there is no lack of would be gunners haha. but I thought it sounded like a different way to do it.. Then the usual stuff I see for this..

Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them

This is the issue I think that the gunner has. Which is Why people suggest ways to improve or change something so they are needed more often.. Weather we need to have them useful in more spots, is debatable - but muse dose seem to want them to be..



Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 03:05:14 pm »
Quote
I mean, The pilot would pick the one ammo the ship has in the ship load-out screen.. So rather then every ship being pre-loaded with standard (which you could pick) - you would pick any of the existing ammo.. and that would be the ammo on the ships guns..

Now I see. I thought people would just pick ammo as usual, just losing standard + special, and only getting either or (except gunner). Your approach heads more into the "require one gunner" vs "have your choice, with more balance." That's my take on it anyway. Not sure how I feel about that. Maybe not if you make builds where your engies just take the same ammo, but it hurts different ships in different ways, gun wise.

Example: For a junker, I can fit a lot of guns that like the same ammo, so engies can take that. Can't on a galleon. At least for the build I'm thinking of off the top of my head.

If there is to be an ammo mechanic change, I'd hope it changes everything equally, which I'm not sure is possible.

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(hence stamina..)

Ugh, my first experience of that felt just wrong. Didn't fit in the game. I won't derail too hard here, but there are certainly better ways to approach getting gunners on more ships if that is Muse's goal. I'd go for this ammo mechanics idea before stamina.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2015, 06:40:36 pm »
Gunners are fine, it is just people don't know how to use them correctly or they actually don't need them

This is the issue I think that the gunner has. Which is Why people suggest ways to improve or change something so they are needed more often.. Weather we need to have them useful in more spots, is debatable - but muse dose seem to want them to be..

Yes, what has to be changed to make gunners more used are ammo types, since most guns allow one ammo type to be the best. Sometimes two ammo types are the best for one gun (e.g.: Hwacha with Heavy or Burst), but then some people think they can survive without the second ammo type (e.g.: only burst hwacha on Goldfish). Gunners would sometimes be used on guns that have different ranges, because of arming time and, I say, should pretty much always be used when you use at least 2 different guns to get the best out of both of them.

I suppose it depends on the pilot, does he want all crewmembers to be using only that one gun with the optimal ammo and all others with default ammo if it comes down to it? Or does he want at least one of them to use multiple guns and operate all of them with the optimal ammo instead of default? The problem here is no that default ammo exists, it is that all the other ammo types are still very close to default and only in those rare cases do they differ. I don't think anybody needs a burst Artemis to destroy guns, because the default ammo is enough to destroy those guns or for Carronades it is enough to destroy balloons or for Mortar it is enough to kill pretty much every ship in the game with one clip. The guns are just so good at what they do that increasing damage or fire rate just speedens up the process. Now the rare cases I mentioned would be Lesmok for long range, Heavy clip for long range Hwacha or sniping Carronades/Minotaurs and burst for disable everything Hwacha, but these are also cases were having only one ammo type is pretty much ok to have.

Offline Sarabelle Marlowe

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 08:07:00 pm »
Hmm, I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand, it would be rather nice to have a custom default ammo on the ship as to insure that it is brought. And it would make the gunner more important by having the ability to choose how to utilize the guns more.

But...with some ships it would make it impossible to utilize certain builds and make more work for a gunner. One of the builds my clan likes to use on galleon is double flak bot deck, merc top sniping side. The top deck engi takes charged for the merc, and the bot deck one takes lesmock to help with the flak arcs. So if the engi can no longer bring their own, what would the default choice be? If the choice was les, that would strip damage from the merc since it's rather easy to use without les, but if you choose charged that would make it harder for the engi on the bot deck, and wouldn't be able to fire the same range with the gunner. And the gunner can't reload for them due to size of the ship and reload times.

Or another build I see frequently enough is the meta pyra gat/mortar front, and flamethrower side. Alot of engi's like lesmock for the flame thrower, and engi on mortar debate between greased /burst/charge. (Oh gods, the debate on best ammo for that gun XD) So which ammo? Now the pilot is forced to choose a default ammo type that may not agree with both of the engineers play style. Should the gunner bring a different one for the mortar? After the first clip, you'd have to hope you killed it or have the gunner reload again.

Mind you, this is just off the top of my head but I'm sure there are other examples. So that means that which ever round the pilot chooses to be his default, he then would have to choose the guns that fit it best or force the gunner to run around more...and depending on the ship that's near impossible to expect...thus limiting your build options.

It's a fine idea...but I see a few difficulties that may arise. I'd love to see more ammo types to add to the gunner's versatility to be honest.


Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 08:53:16 pm »
Several have said it, and idk what topics so un... People say gunner isn't fair because gunner has one less option then other classes.. because of standard ammo

Basically.. Engineer and pilot have 3 of their class, 1 of each others class, and then 2 ammo choices.. while gunner gets 1 of the other classes items + 3 ammo.. So only one less compared to them.

What if they just remove the pilot and engineer ammo choice, and let the pilot pick the ships "Standard ammo" on the ship loadout?

This way the pilot and engineer get one ammo (from the ship loadout) and the gunner gets his three choices..  Also make standard ammo an actual ammo.

This also has the added effect, that your engineers can't bring different ammo so the gunners options maybe more useful then a third engineer. Also I guess AI would use whatever ammo you have as "Standard"..

Thoughts?

wait... pilot gets 1 and engie gets 1 for ammo.
all 3 classes have, 3 for their class and 1 for each class outside their own.

So I'm guessing the suggestion is change the formula from 1, 1, 3

to 1, 2, 3?

Like pilot

3 pilot, 2 engie, 1 gunner.

engie

3 engie, 2 gunner, 1 pilot

gunner

3 gunner, 2 pilot (tho engie makes more sense-but balancing issue), 1 engie?

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Another way to balanced an apparent gunner issue..
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 10:33:22 pm »
-stuff-

I agree, if they could make ammo have more utility and extend there usefulness - gunners could become more valuable on more guns because more situations demand them.. I liked the idea they had going to.. change ammo to being less mix bag and more specific in what it does.. but I guess that went on the back burner for stamina or something.. ? idk..

That said I think the primary issue is short range guns don't benefit from multiple ammo types.. and its because there is no "situations" for the current ammo to... There range is to short.. Most of them have multiple ammo that work well with it.. just one is all you really need for it.. and more engineer tools is more valuable then the minor benefit you'd get having two other ammo..

Even if you think about it.. What do ammo types do for gunner? They let him use a gun more effectively ad various ranges (usually long, mid, short).. That's ammo only strength really..  atm.. So I think if they did new ammo they would have to think out side this box.. and make ammo effect engagements in more ways then range..  but idk what that might be.. I have thought about it.. but short of really gimmicky niche ammo ideas.. I don't know what would really stand out...

Even removing standard ammo would really only effect.. heavy flak, lumberjack, artemis, hades, and mine launcher.. I think?. and that's only because lesmonk = more effective long range and standard = useable short range with lesmonk.. Gunner is more useful in all these cases already (except the artemis.. but artemis is an engineer gun not a gunner gun anyway.. 99% of the time so its irreverent)... 

Pretty much all the other guns - gunner usually not that useful for anyways.. because one ammo will do it (and more doesn't outweigh the value of two engineer tools) and standard isn't a factor in why..

Another major issue with removing standard in any form is you nerf engineer but don't actually buff gunner at all for many ship loadouts.. Due to - each class generally has a "spot" on the ship .. and if the gun is in an engineer slot.. It doesn't matter if a gunner is better or not - it has to be a engineer.. (think galleon top deck, spire top deck, pyra top right.. etc )... So nerfing engineer here doesn't help the gunner game all the time..

If the change isn't making gunner more or equally as viable in spots gunners go.. then its not that useful.

The topic idea would force more gunner use (as Zill says).. because otherwise you don't have more then one ammo or you have at lest one less effective gun.. and this effects.. most gunner slots positively and effects some engineer slots negatively. (Positive in that.. if more gunner use was a goal, then it would cause it - Negatively in that, it hurts engineer slots but doesn't help gunner usefulness).

-That was.. maybe more words then needed!-

-stuff-

I don't deny there would be a lot of.. changes.. The builds would still be usable, they'd just be less efficient..

Weather the changes would be to many and the viable gunner not worth it as a result.. Could be the case.

As said though, just a random thought. I didn't actually think it through entirely, so idk if I am for it myself.. Just sounded interesting to me..

-stuff-

No no.. the argument is..

Pilot has:
3 pilot tools 1 engineer tool and 1 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 2)

Engineer has
1 pilot tool 3 engineer tools and 1 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 2)

Gunner has
1pilot tool 1 engineer tool and 3 ammo plus standard ammo (so actually 4)


So gunner technically has the weakest options - cause as Zill says ammo has a diminishing return and standard is usually not useful to a gunner.. cause they have a better standard range ammo choice.. but the engineer benefits form standard ammo in certain cases.

So the two main suggestions I've seen is, give everyone a pipe wrench  (basically standard ammo in tool form).. or  remove standard ammo on guns and make them reload whatever a player puts in it to make it so.. Engineers only have a single option when on a gun - same as a gunner only has one option when it comes to tools.. (or give both two options)..

This was just another thought on how they could remove standard as the secondary ammo, and instead make it so non-gunner has no ammo versatility (like gunner has no repair versatility)... and all ammo versatility comes from the gunner class.