Author Topic: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?  (Read 29146 times)

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2015, 09:28:12 am »
Atleast you are gonna try.

These pyra nerfs are great but god damn it should make you play more into what it has.
Maybe now you would want to ram, and use impact bumpers if you are still afraid.
Maybe now you would want to have the side guns as close, and the front guns as disable for the approach.

And most definetly not loose momentum, but it still is a fast ship. Just doesnt react as quick as it did.

Its got the health of a junker now, and with less armor and easier to hit hull. But it is faster + can ram and has its baloon most protected, unlike the junker where baloon popping that can be a devestation for it.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2015, 09:39:25 am »
That's the issue with health on the pyra, it is a huge hunk of hull which is easy to hit, although an effective anti balloon defence, it has the weakness of a junker without the benefits of the junker...
The junker has weak perma hull, harder to hit hull, and a huge volume of armour...

The pyra was over-nerfed.. Even if only marginally it was nerfed enough to be too painful, especially considering the buffs spire and squid received...

As you said though, I'm still willing to try it, once I rally my crew.  8)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2015, 12:43:43 pm »
I agree the double nerf was too much. I would've preferred a bigger maneuverability nerf to force reliance on momentum. Is the new acceleration noticeable?

Offline Dementio

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2015, 01:15:36 pm »
My theory is that because Eric always struggled in the past with balancing gat/mortar, getting 'flak' for it, and then eventually just thinking it was so perfect, that he is way too scared to ever change it. He knows that it is the meta with a pyra, so he probably just thought it would be easier for him to change the pyra, then to mess with a meta he's 'tried' to balance.

He's been digging this weird trench for awhile. Why he doesn't realize the simple solution is turn the pyra back to being a tanky, slow to accelerate and turn ship to make it balanced (it should be like a charging bull, hard to stop once it's built up speed, hard to turn, but hits like a truck), I will never know. Or that a squid should rely on the old RPG thief concept of dodging and speed for the squid to survive. Or that a junker should never have been that tanky, but should also have a lot of speed to flirt in and out of arcs and combat (seriously, it's some wood, a tarp and scrap metal, it should be lighter and faster). And that a spire needs to be tankier in armor, not health, to be a gun platform. Just so much wrong with the current ships compared to their description and concept because he's been allowed free reign. Every ship is quickly becoming more like the other in stats, when they should be becoming more and more different for variety and meta variety.

Alas he has stubborn and confident as they come, and he will will never stop tweaking this game into weird and unnecessary directions.

I cannot agree more than I do. Since I joined the game, which was around the time of the Mobula and Mine patch, every try to "balance" has gone into completely silly directions. I don't know how it was before, but as it is now, it really shouldn't be.

I almost feel inclined to write an email to Muse everday why a number of tries to "balance" ships are not as good as some more design fitting ones could have been and why they should change the stats or change the design to fit the stats, everyday with a different argument which could easily be a task for a month or two.



I mean, yeah, it is Muse's game, but who the hell wants a ship which design's just scream of inducing fear in whoever it is pointed at and than have it be as soft as a teddy bear? And why the hell is the Squid so healthy on health? When a Squid is battling something, it's like someone is trying to squash some kind of annoying fly, but the fly will tank so hard, they will need to squash it ten thousand more times in order to get rid of it.

Fun!

Offline Inkjet

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2015, 02:49:22 pm »
Its time to be sneaky and use all 4 guns. By that, perhaps for large maps youl want long range front. Or disabling front for short range and then side weapons gat mortar when you get close?

I don't want to long range in a ship that is all hull and dies to a single buffed Lesmok Typhon round.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2015, 09:06:39 pm »
If you want a tanky vanguard bring a spire. If you want a tanky charger bring a squid.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2015, 11:25:11 pm »
If you want a tanky vanguard bring a spire. If you want a tanky charger bring a squid.
-Sammy B T

Offline Serenum

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2015, 07:20:33 pm »
Trust me, nobody here hates pyramidions more than me. They are the easiest ship in the game and public games are often flooded with them.
I also despise any ship with more than one foward-pointing gun, I feel it's a design that detracts from the more interesting aspect of the game and makes the firefights a lot more static and boring and less "ship like".

With that said... The Pyramidion now has basically half the hull points of a Squid.
There is something horribly wrong with this situation. It's counter-intuitive, not to mention against what little lore we have on the ships.
And from the balance standpoint, it's excessive.

Offline Indreams

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2015, 07:34:32 pm »
It's counter-intuitive, not to mention against what little lore we have on the ships.
And from the balance standpoint, it's excessive.

Yea. Yeshan ships are, as far as I can tell, more stable and sturdy than other ships. Their design, as well as their game play supports this theory. Galleon, Goldfish, and Pyramidion are three ships the doesn't feel like you are clinging to the riggings (Mobula is like sitting on a cloud). It's only right that the Pyramidion has some hull health.

And let's be honest, what ever the hull health of a ship is, one clip of greased mortar will wrap it up.

Offline Lydia Litvyak

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2015, 11:06:11 pm »
Expanding on what Thomas has already said, what made the Pyra powerful and easy to crew was the fact that you can have perfect repair and chem coverage (IE, all* components can be on cooldown, always) while also having massive damage output (two light guns with fully overlapping arc plus rams) and without ever needing to take crew off guns to repair. No other ship can do that, so all the other ships require much more experienced crew to operate at full capacity. The nerfs didn't address any of that.

*Except for your rear flare but this is not important.

Offline Ayetach

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2015, 11:34:42 am »
I suppose to compensate the hull nerf in the mean time, one can order the buff engi to beef up the hull armor right before engagements.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2015, 01:31:59 pm »
I suppose to compensate the hull nerf in the mean time, one can order the buff engi to beef up the hull armor right before engagements.

Then it becomes junker v2, hard armor but frailer than a squid once it hits 0. I mean, aside from the front guns when you look at pyramidion its very much the opposite of junker. More exposed hull, can charge back and forth, more viable when ramming, less viable when broadsiding. Why would you buff the hull now? Why would you even require a buff engi to run the ship right? Hell buffing the hull of a pyra before 1.4.0 would have brought you even better results. I dont use the pyra as much as I used to, but I dont want it to go down like this

Offline RoastinGhost

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2015, 06:44:10 pm »
I speak from limited experience, but how about this- roll back 1.4.0 changes, but reduce turning acceleration or maximum rate? I like the idea of a tanky but slow-turning charger.

Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2015, 07:58:24 pm »
I speak from limited experience, but how about this- roll back 1.4.0 changes, but reduce turning acceleration or maximum rate? I like the idea of a tanky but slow-turning charger.

Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?

I like the idea of reducing acceleration. Making the engine not repairable from the bottom would render the pyra nearly obsolete. It would be interesting but ultimately I feel that the 3 engine repair is essential.

Offline Indreams

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Re: 1.4.0 Pyra. Too much stick?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2015, 08:49:24 pm »
Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?

Changing the ship layout, instead of changing numbers, is a good way to achieve balance.

I like the idea of main engine not being repairable from the bottom. But, that would be too big of a nerf. How about redesigning the back of the ship so that the engineer has to jump to reach that main engine? Nerf that ridiculous engine rebuild speed, while keeping the general repairs unchanged.