Author Topic: About the Minotaur  (Read 7927 times)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2015, 06:31:30 pm »
I agree it needs more balance, I just don't think a taur fish is as powerful as you (Max Jazzhand) contend. I would be comfortable against a taur fish in a hwatcha or blender fish. Then again I've never fought a successful one before so you do have more experience.

Sure it can suppress those other ships, but so can the other fish- more successfully I might add (it's what fish do best). The only killing power of the taur fish comes from terrain impact and the light gun bifecta. It's not enough to be a more viable counter than established builds. It's biggest issue is that it slows down the game.

Double taur galleon can easily lock down a ranged galleon and slowly break the armor. I like using the shatter, but the gun isn't currently balanced to deal 1 shot buffed heavy disables at extreme range with precision accuracy.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 06:38:51 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2015, 07:11:20 pm »
I agree it needs more balance, I just don't think a taur fish is as powerful as you (Max Jazzhand) contend. I would be comfortable against a taur fish in a hwatcha or blender fish. Then again I've never fought a successful one before so you do have more experience.

Sure it can suppress those other ships, but so can the other fish- more successfully I might add (it's what fish do best). The only killing power of the taur fish comes from terrain impact and the light gun bifecta. It's not enough to be a more viable counter than established builds. It's biggest issue is that it slows down the game.

Double taur galleon can easily lock down a ranged galleon and slowly break the armor. I like using the shatter, but the gun isn't currently balanced to deal 1 shot buffed heavy disables at extreme range with precision accuracy.

It doesn't need to. it can take its time disabling because its controlling the target ship's movement and arcs. It will do those component destroys eventually. And it has the clip size to do it.

Its no lumberjack where you need very precise calculations on shell arc to hit and disable. You literally point and shoot. I really am an advocate for that anti arming time thing. Where distance dissipates the effect (and its super strong point blank). I mean its just a ball of wind slamming into the ship! Logically that should dissipate with distance.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 07:14:12 pm by Maximillian Jazzhand »

Offline MidnightWonko

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2015, 09:11:14 pm »
By my calculations (and I could be off, 'cause they got crazy complicated), the Minotaur, with direct piercing and splash impact, would do a bit more DPS to the balloon than the Dragon Tongue, and just marginally less to the hull.  It would also do just slightly less damage than a Hades to the armor, yet have the bonus of never missing with Heavy Clip.  With those damage types reversed, its damage to the balloon and hull would be just a little less than a Hades, yet would outrank a Hades for armor damage.
You seem keen to learn so I'll see what I can do.

After doing my own calculations, I have to ask how much damage are you using for the Impact AoE? If we change the secondary from Shatter to Impact, it would be rebalanced (i.e. definitely not 175 damage). Impact damage type is rare and has the best, all-rounded damage modifiers. The damage output is simply ridiculous to everything besides components.

Following the argument from Richard LeMoon, I see the core problem. What he is asking for is simply a small amount of Flechette damage, not Impact. There is a misconception that Impact would do better against Balloon as compared to Armor. Balloons have 1200hp and is designed to go down fast when targeted. That is why Flechette based weapons naturally have high damage. Impact damage type is very difficult to balance without being too strong against armor/hull.
However, because the Minotaur is so all-rounded, I don't think any of it would make it weaker than the current Shatter type, unless the damage is negligible.

Assuming the splash damage is changed from Shatter to Impact, I am using damage numbers of 60 direct Piercing and 175 Splash impact.

I am also prepared to list the equation I use:

Damage per second = clip size (direct bonus * direct damage + splash bonus * splash damage) / (clip size / shots per second + reload time)

If anyone sees an error in the above, please let me know.  I'd love to have more accurate numbers.

By using the above formula and assuming that every projectile hits its target and also does splash damage, this comes to 72.3 balloon dps, 60.7 hull dps, 50.9 dps, and 25.9 component dps.  This gives it similar Dragon Tongue balloon and hull dps (71.4, 61.9), places it near the midway point between Hellhound and Hades armor dps (39.7, 61.5), and nearly identical Scylla component dps (25.7), all accounting for individual reload times, yet ignoring ignition chance.

Here are the damages, again, as I calculated.  First with Piercing/Impact, as you proposed.  Then with Piercing/Shatter as it presently is.  Then with Impact/Shatter, and finally with Explosive/Shatter:

bllon, hull, armor, comp
72.3, 60.7, 50.9, 25.9 Piercing/Impact
10.4, 06.5, 27.6, 80.0 Piercing/Shatter
31.6, 23.8, 18.4, 85.3 Impact/Shatter
11.1, 22.4, 11.7, 81.4 Explosive/Shatter

Offline ZnC

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2015, 11:49:26 pm »
@MidnightWonko: Your formula is quite accurate, I've sent you a PM for a cleaner one.

The only problem I have with the Minotaur is how versatile it is coupled with it's ease of use. Being able to disable components is an interesting secondary feature, but also having 1.8k range, 800m/s projectile speed, 45 degree arcs all around might be too much. However, I want to see how players try to deal with it and have no suggestion to make as of yet.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2015, 12:05:20 am »
It turns out the taur fish is an excellent mining platform with lesmok side mine and good gunners. Quite fun but a distinct lack of killing power without help from terrain.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 12:13:42 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline MidnightWonko

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2015, 12:38:27 am »
I think the smartest suggestion I've seen in this thread so far was reducing the taur's range from 1800 to 800 (a decrease of about 55%).  This would allow it to counter carronades while not threatening to obsolete the Lumberjack, as well as allow the Mercury, Artemis, and Manticore to counter it by virtue of high shatter damage as well as outranging it.

Also, ZanC, thank you for the improved formula.  It showed me an interesting insight.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 12:40:31 am by MidnightWonko »

Offline arsgrabba

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2015, 11:12:56 pm »
This gun is op, an equalizer for newbs. No more ramming. It was an unnecessary addition to an already great game.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2015, 11:51:58 pm »
Frankly the noobs need a lot of equalising. The gun is slightly unbalanced pretty much everyone agrees.

Offline MidnightWonko

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2015, 12:57:19 am »
So...this weapon got hit pretty hard with a nerf.  Total shatter damage dropped from 175 to 140, and projectile speed was more than halved.  It now does less than double the damage to components as the lumberjack (assuming all shots hit), and now the Artemis outdamages it a little bit on components.

I'd have to see it in a few more matches, but I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.

Offline Dementio

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2015, 08:33:52 am »
I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.

Wait, it was overpowered? When?

Offline Kamoba

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2015, 09:41:23 am »
I'm not sure I feel this weapon is overpowered anymore.

Wait, it was overpowered? When?

Seconded...

It was not over powered, unbalanced and still finding its place in the game, but not OP :)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: About the Minotaur
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2015, 10:29:08 am »
If you can't successfully put it on a Goldfish and have it become the new go-to gun, it is not overpowered. At best, it was somewhat useful. Now, not so much. I actually had my gunner bring lesmok for long range, which did help. Still mostly useless on a Goldfish, though. Outside of joke builds, anyways.