Author Topic: New Gun and Stamina System Testing  (Read 14595 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 11:18:09 am »
Just to illustrate the ram issue, those were not just moonshine Galleon rams. Those were full engine buff, full stamina, full moonshine, full speed Galleon rams. No effect or damage to either ship.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 11:21:07 am »
Just to illustrate the ram issue, those were not just moonshine Galleon rams. Those were full engine buff, full stamina, full moonshine, full speed Galleon rams. No effect or damage to either ship.


Which means one of the most popular tactics in the game, ramming is a risky tactic, but when done right, rewarding...

It should not be taken away..

Offline Kadetti Lola Ellpuu

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2015, 10:54:42 am »
I really can't see much use in the sprint that the engineers get. It's really easy to get stuck now, imagine what will happen when you're sprinting across the ship...
About the stamina for gunner though,  it seems pretty op - the extended arcs are crazy, sometimes you can even clip through your own ship. And the stamina UI sucks ^^
Couldn't really test the minotaur in a fight, it seems like a fun idea though!
I am also worried about the capture point changes. A lot of pilots don't realise it's a capture point map or don't know about it or just ignore the points completely. You can still win now blocking enemies 1v2...

Btw I kinda like how the squid can be really strong in hands of an experienced pilot and practically a flying coffin otherwise :D

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2015, 04:59:06 pm »
Reading through this thread I think a large majority all have similar thoughts over all with different ways to a more desired end result. Stamina needs much more work/ minotaur underwhelming but with potential .

**I'm not going to talk about the ship changes or piloting stamina because I do not pilot, EVER**

Minotaur:
I was really excited when I heard another gun was being worked on!!! Woot, new content!
 Round 1: Loaded lesmok and was at long range. SURPRISE!: it had little to no effect at long range and that it was really easy to shoot. (with the exception that i had no noise or ammo trails when shooting this gun so I wasn't able to judge it's arc until it actually hit the ship and I saw a marker). Ok, mid range with burst and charge are about the same. Slightly more satisfying but still little effect to what I thought would happen. Match ended, back in lobby everyone seemed to have the same thing to say. Very underwhelming and no effect at long distance.
 Round 2: Greased, Incendiary and Heavy. (greased and heavy both brought beccause of the basis that is shoots like a Carronade.) Incendiary because Richard suggested it, we were both hoping it would make the gun more like his Flame Vortex Cannon idea (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4709.0.html).
Heavy: Still un underwhelming effect.
GREASED!!! Finally!!!! mid to close range finally gave me some effect that I was looking for. I could flip a goldfish/mobula in circles or at least off their mark. BUT good pilots were easily able to counter it's effects, especially with stamina. On a pyra, galleon, spire it had little effect.
Incendiary: :( Did not make it like the Flame Vortex I was so hoping for.
 Round 3: Heat sink, Locknagar, standard ammo: No added benefit with the first two and not even close to the effect greased gave it.

OVERALL for the Minotaur: UNDER WHELMING! I like the idea of a gun that is used for tactics more than damage. I think that could add interesting game play, however, this gun needs to have "more" in order for me to see anyone really taking this gun for tactics apposed to just sticking to the guns we have now. I really like this idea for the gun:
My thoughts are to double the clip size and make it shoot faster. Change one of the damage types to Impact.

It reminded me of the movement effects mines have but without the damage. In a 2v2 your other ship has to be something like a Meta Pyra in order to have enough killing power to actually win a match, frankly. But even that would be easy to counter.

Added enjoyment to the game: A new gun: YES. This gun: maybe. This gun at it's current condition: NO.

Stamina:
Oh Stamina, you disappoint me in so many ways.
 First: It's UI is BIG and in your face and distracting and crowds out the more important ones like parts that are damaged.
 Second: This is not at all like the new content players have asked for.
 Third: I find stamina in it's current form GAME BREAKING! 

Don't get me wrong I like the effort that you put out to try to make something new and to make something that would make each class more of it's own. With people complaining that gunners aren't useful, this seemed like a probable answer. However, AS IT IS, IT IS GAME BREAKING.

Engi Stamina: Welp. Like most other things when it comes to engineers. It's the most balances but also the least exciting. Is it fun to run super fast: YES! But it is only most useful for main engi on a goldfish running from back engines to hull or for main engi on a galleon running from main deck up the stairs to balloon. For most gungi positions it seemed useless. On a pyra I found that running from hull to the engines back to hull it was too fast. The game couldn't keep up with how fast I ran and how slow I hit. Trying to hit engines while using stamina just made me have to stop hit, stop hit or go back and re-hit. Also, whatever changed with the last update (in the real game too) has made railings grab you like a sticky octopus. The railings leave you flailing around, jumping and squirming in utter desperation to get free while you watch the hull decrease in health and turn red. SO the stamina ONLY MAKES THIS WORSE. (this goes for pretty much any of the ships with railings close to components.)  The cool down cycle of a mallet makes it pointless to run faster because you are going to have to wait anyways.
Jumping: Useless at best. The jumping pretty much just let me get stuck in new places I never knew the sticky octopus lived, like literally on top of the Hull on a Galleon. Jumped from the top deck to the hull to repair it, thought it'd be fun to use stamina to make the jump. INSTEAD: I jumped right from the top deck to some invisible box above the hull. Leaving me jumping and flailing to get off of it but not actually able to hit the hull. SO CLOSE BUT SO FAR. The balloon/railing of the pyra. I've been stuck in this area before but yep you really get stuck if you jump using stamina. Quick frankly there were no place the jump really helped me out. I could hit squid engines and the main engine of the galleon from below easier but nothing that i couldn't do with some trained parkour moves before, which I think is one of the things that makes the difference between a ok engi and a great engi.

OVERALL ENGINEER STAMINA: Eh. Did it make the game more fun: Only when fooling around. When it came down to actual serious game play it was slightly useful with a LARGE serving of frustration with the hitting being too slow and the railings too sticky. I'd only slightly use it and ONLY to run faster in "Oh, Shit" moments to catch a hull before breaking.
 
Gunner Stamina:
NO! In no way at it's current form should this be implemented! And this is where it becomes game breaking. WHY does stamina allow a gunner to push a gun so far out of it's normal arc that I could shoot so far up THROUGH MY OWN SHIPS BALLOON, so far down THERE COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE A DECK under neither my gun and so far to either side THAT THE RAILINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN BLOWN TO PIECES.

The gunner stamina literally breaks the game. It makes every gun OP. This gun has crappy arc, no problem just stamina this and break a part on the enemy ship to re-gen faster. My pilot sucks at getting me into arc, no problem, I got stamina for that. That enemy just pushed me out of arc as a tactical move, no problem, I have stamina for that. (Which the gunner stamina makes the Minotaur pretty useless)

If they want to use it to increase the gun arcs or movement speed then it should be based on a percentage so that each gun still could only go so far or move so quick and maybe even do small damage to the gun, like lochnagar.

Overall Gunner Stamina: NO! JUST NO! At it's current state it does not make the game more fun. It breaks the game.

I like a game that makes me become a better player to win more. Guns of Icarus does that. This is why Vetrans do so well because they have put the time and effort into learning the game, learning the guns, learning the ammos, learning tools and learning gun arcs. With this new stamina you ruin that. A pilot wouldn't have to be good anymore for a gunner to hit their target. A gunner doesn't have to be good at timing their shots. You take a game that actually requires work and instead dumb it down. This will kill the community if you implement something that renders all the hard work of your players useless. Why should veterans even try to teach new players the "tricks" of the game if they can just use stamina instead. Veteran players will either leave the game or just use the system to make an even larger gap in game play. The newer players will either not learn or learn the tricks of the game slower because they'll use stamina instead. Things like gun arcs, toggling moonshine for "x" seconds then waiting "x" seconds and repeat in order to get your effect but not break your engines, and other captain tools just seem less important now when they can just stamina it all. A few of the players on this forum have some interesting ideas for the stamina like keeping the gunner in their seat or not using stamina at all and using the previously worked upon ammos and slightly increasing the speed of everything would make the game faster. Stamina in this form is just not it.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2015, 08:23:01 pm »
Idea for minotaur: give it shatter damage, because a ship without engines is easier to push around.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2015, 02:20:00 am »
And little tar clouds because... well, it has to do something, right?

In all seriousness, the big guns are there to mess you up.

Get hit by hwacha... messed up big time. No guns, no engines. Completely screwed in one clip.

Get hit by Carro... no balloon. Completely screwed in one clip.

Get hit by Lumberjack... no balloon. Completely screwed in one clip.

Get hit by Flak with armor down... completely screwed in one clip.

Get hit by Minotaur... that was a bit annoying. Carry on, chaps.

Since this gun is designed to force ships to move, perhaps the tar, or better yet, caustic (piercing damage cloud) is not a bad idea after all. If they don't move, all shots land in the same spot, making a personal caustic cloud, dissolving armor... completely screwed in one clip.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2015, 08:15:57 pm »
Confirmed it after I double checked. There is no squid buff in dev app. Those patch notes are false. Turn rate and accel is the same as in regular game. Only stamina buff puts the squid back to where Muse fixed it before stamina.

Officially POed once more. I will no test again till I see the squid put back. I thought it was strange I was constantly having to fly with stamina on to do anything.

Offline Gambrill

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2015, 04:11:36 am »
Pyramidion
- Reduced hull health

Squid
- Increased hull health

Still disagree about this, but if you, Muse, decide that this is the best idea...

While I was hoping for a buff to the Squid overall, I definitely didn't expect a buff to the already high hull. Squid is surprizingly tanky with the 4-hit spanner rebuild on armor.

but if they increase the hull they have to increase the repair times remember? and i reckon that if you have increased hull health you can't just top it up to full hp with a wrench, meaning you may need someone with a rubber mallet and spanner ;) 5 hits to repair would be a good ofset for it :)

Offline Dementio

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2015, 04:41:49 am »
but if they increase the hull they have to increase the repair times remember?
Health of component increases rebuild value, yes, but I am sure it is value of armor that increases the amount of hits to rebuild and not the hull health value. According to this:
HitsToRebuild = ( RebuildBaseHits + (MaxHealth * RebuildHealthMultiplier) ) * PartTypeMultiplier
It wouldn't make much sense to me otherwise, at least. Especially when you consider the Pyramidion having less hull than a Squid, which already sounds ridiculous, and a Galleon having more hull value than the Squid and both taking longer to rebuild the armor. They probably take longer to rebuild, because they have more armor value.

and i reckon that if you have increased hull health you can't just top it up to full hp with a wrench
So you are used to using a pipe wrench on the Squid armor? I use Mallet and Spanner, because of my engineer routines, because I can't see any advantage of having a pipe wrench on the armor.

you may need someone with a rubber mallet and spanner ;) 5 hits to repair would be a good ofset for it :)
With the low armor value of the Squid, taking one more hit to rebuild might just be the end of its already end-ish end, but if it gets a speed buff, it may be good?

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2015, 06:12:33 pm »
A pipe wrench is indeed more efficient than a spanner for repairing the squid armor, but IMO it's still not worth taking because it's less useful than mallet on balloon.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2015, 07:31:32 pm »
Not with triple enginee and one being dedicated hull enginee. Wrench, spanner, buff/extinguish. Then the other 2 run standard with extinguish. I don't like chem on squids. If you need chem on a squid, you aren't flying it right. Ideally you should be evading flames before they can high stack. But fires with more than 3 are common because one flame pass can get some stacks easily up past 5.

Problem with the squid is, you can't let the engines go down. So using chem you sit there waiting for cooldowns to put it out before repairing. But with the squid, you lose about 50% of the speed on the ship with just minor engine damage. Heck with 1 engine down the vessel is practically immobile. It is better to be able to extinguish and repair quick so the pilot can evade. The old squid wasn't this way. You could lose either the upper or the turning engines and the vessel could still somewhat move. It was a big perk with the vessel. Being able to actually escape with engines down.

If the performance hit to engines and the overall uselessness of the engines was resolved, then you'd be looking at working some chem in. Cause now you have time. A little flame is not going to cause utter chaos and cripple a squid.

Offline Dementio

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 04:49:38 am »
Ignoring the derailing of the thread by arguing what the best way of crewing a Squid is, I would like the devs to know that the titel of the thread is actually lacking information as it also hold information of ship balance that barely anybody is talking about, which one could only guess when not viewing the threads content.

Main thing we want to know about these changes is “do they increase the fun?”  These will definitely change the way you play, that’s the main idea but do they change them in a way that makes the game more enjoyable?  Do they give you more options?  Does it feel more rewarding from second to second?

Fighting as a Pyramidion is less fun, because it dies even quicker.
Fighting against a Squid is less fun, because it takes more damage than necessary. (Why making the one ship that was supposed to tank with speed the one ship that is the most tankiest regarding armor/hull value is a good idea is beyond me)
Fighting as a Spire is more fun, at least.

Minotaur's assistance is questionably non-existent. It has to have some damage output, nothing major but something that can also assist some other guns. Because, only three ships currently can hage heavy guns with one having only the front gun shooting at the same time, another having only a light gun and one more heavy gun that can easily be disabled or be better to have on the third ship, which has three light guns kinda aiming at the same direction as its heavy gun. This basically means that having a Minotaur Goldfish is a waste of time, the Galleon might be better of with other heavy guns and only the Spire can really make use of it by making itself less "glass" if the enemy can't shoot at it.

Stamina makes only fun for pilots, because they don't need to use pilot tools as often, which could possibly make playing engineers more boring since there is less to repair but I dunno, and also because if pilots actually do use their tools it will create lots of giggles. Not much gameplay improvement though, especially because of more buttons needing to be pushed or pushed at the same time.
Stamina for gunners makes no sense, doesn't increase or decrease fun factor and possibly questions balance. What it will succeed in, and that I guarantee, is making it less frustrated for people when pilots don't know their gun arcs.
Stamina for engineers was not needed, but seems logical with the excepetion of the jumps. That is actually the only fun part of that as far as I can subjectively tell as you can jump off the ship, above the mountains, accross the map, into the enemy spawn and show them your super duper cool costume.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 09:22:22 am »
I don't get it. Why not just make the squid low on armor and health, and just ramp the speed and vertical acceleration until the thing is a Bugatti veyron? Why not give the pyra more armor, more acceleration, but just less turning like back in the day? When it was a charging a bull that once it had it's horns down, could hardly turn side to side, but hit like a train.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Gun and Stamina System Testing
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2015, 05:23:19 pm »

Fighting against a Squid is less fun, because it takes more damage than necessary. (Why making the one ship that was supposed to tank with speed the one ship that is the most tankiest regarding armor/hull value is a good idea is beyond me)


YES!!! And why did that happen? Because 1.2 happened, they slowed the squid down till it was a flying snail and then when it was clearly getting torn up by everything, their solution was dumping on hull.

So the weight patch goes in which fixes a problem with the game (it was necessary), but they didn't stop and tune the game back. Overnight we went from fun to crap. Then we got excuses that this was the way the game actually should have been and that the old game was just horrifically broken. Pyramidions and merc battles suddenly became the Meta. So instead of fixing the core problem, Muse has been fixing and breaking everything else for over a year now trying to make it work.

What would have happened had 1.2 hit and Muse decided, lets not turn the game on it's head but lets take some time and try to keep it in line so we don't spend a year having to micro manage the meta play? Its pretty obvious they could have done it if the squid recently was patched back to within 90% of it's former self. Answer is, someone there didn't want to. Someone wanted it this way. Which is not bad in itself, it is Muse's creation.

However, this drastic move forever split the community. Now we have 2 different GOIO experiences and two factions in the community who will never see eye to eye. Every Muse change is increasingly scrutinized by either side. Only solution is if one side goes away (Not happening) or if Muse supplies two modes of play. Now that in itself has issues because it will be a waste of resources and time to implement a 2 mode system when that system reveals the majority of people like it one way over the other. One mode would forever be only played by a few people who then would complain they are forced to play the other because no one plays one. We all know which one it would be too. Which brings us full circle back to the core problem...1.2.