Author Topic: Incendiary Rounds  (Read 40572 times)

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2015, 07:55:04 am »
Now let's do the calculating again,
Greased wasn't affected by the fire ignition chance mistake, so we can count on it being 4.8 fires per second still.

Recalculation for incendiary:
shots/sec: 11.669
fire ignition chance: 18% + 25% (0.18+0.25=0.43)
fires/sec: 11.669*0.43=5

Incendiary will ignite 5 fires per second.

Wow, I never thought it would actually be 25%, that would indeed make incendiary have higher ignition rate and be much better than greased. Thanks for sharing. *thumbs up*

However, in the recent 1.3.9 patch, it says: "Skill descriptions now draw directly from configuration (so they can't get out of sync with the actual effects)." So I'm totally confused right now.

Edit: I've test it and it does seem like it is 20%. Considering it applies to Direct and Secondary damage I have about 40% ignition chance firing at dummy balloons on the gatling.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 08:23:19 am by ZanC »

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2015, 08:16:11 am »
In either case, Incendiary is still the best flamer ammo.  New flamer meta...?

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2015, 08:22:29 am »
In either case, Incendiary is still the best flamer ammo.  New flamer meta...?

After running a test (which I actually did before), I stand my ground that Greased is the better flamer ammo because of ignition rate and range.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2015, 08:26:26 am »
However, in the recent 1.3.9 patch, it says: "Skill descriptions now draw directly from configuration (so they can't get out of sync with the actual effects)." So I'm totally confused right now.

Yes, it made me quite confused too, however, ever since the change for the fire ignition to be 25%, there wasn't any noted change, nor since when Queso checked it out in the code there was any change.
I am not sure what EXACTLY is going on either.

In either case, Incendiary is still the best flamer ammo.  New flamer meta...?

After running a test (which I actually did before), I stand my ground that Greased is the better flamer ammo because of ignition rate and range.
A subtle change of 0.2-0.5 fire stacks per second could not be easily tested and experimented without a substantial amount of measurements and accurate means of time measuring. I highly doubt you could prove something like that with the random nature of the random.

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2015, 08:35:32 am »
After running a test (which I actually did before), I stand my ground that Greased is the better flamer ammo because of ignition rate and range.
A subtle change of 0.2-0.5 fire stacks per second could not be easily tested and experimented without a substantial amount of measurements and accurate means of time measuring. I highly doubt you could prove something like that with the random nature of the random.

Well I tested it by spawning 108 test dummies, firing a single incendiary round at all their balloons - 44 of them caught fire (40.74%). I ran this test a few months back and got similar results.
My assumption is that the flamer doesn't have secondary dmg type, so it only applies the 20% or 25% only once to direct dmg.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2015, 08:42:45 am »
Well I tested it by spawning 108 test dummies, firing a single incendiary round at all their balloons - 44 of them caught fire (40.74%). I ran this test a few months back and got similar results.
My assumption is that the flamer doesn't have secondary dmg type, so it only applies the 20% or 25% only once to direct dmg.
So the question is, if it is 20% or 25%. Once we answer that question, you can determine what gives you more fires per second. And that can really go both ways here, if you got a result of 40.74% - That's quite an average result between the presumed 38% and the suspected 43%(average is 40.5%).

Offline ZnC

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2015, 09:52:06 am »
Well I tested it by spawning 108 test dummies, firing a single incendiary round at all their balloons - 44 of them caught fire (40.74%). I ran this test a few months back and got similar results.
My assumption is that the flamer doesn't have secondary dmg type, so it only applies the 20% or 25% only once to direct dmg.
So the question is, if it is 20% or 25%. Once we answer that question, you can determine what gives you more fires per second. And that can really go both ways here, if you got a result of 40.74% - That's quite an average result between the presumed 38% and the suspected 43%(average is 40.5%).

Sorry I wasn't clear on that post, I fired a gatling incendiary round at the balloons. In theory the average for that should be 40% flat (20% direct, 20% secondary) and my tests support that.

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2015, 12:37:41 pm »

Sorry I wasn't clear on that post, I fired a gatling incendiary round at the balloons. In theory the average for that should be 40% flat (20% direct, 20% secondary) and my tests support that.

I would still like some sort of confirmation from code access people about 20/25%, but that sounds more reasonable^^

Offline Extirminator

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2015, 01:18:49 pm »
Sorry for double post, but actually, I haven't taken into account some things and some other data I have from some time ago that supports your claims for 20% as well, when second glancing it. I might have just been mislead. Just wondering what Queso might have been talking about then?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:22:03 pm by Extirminator »

Offline VomAct

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2015, 07:05:26 pm »
Every time I see greased or heatsink mines I die a little on the inside....

Incendiary is essential for a mine gunner, as it changes the way the projectile arcs in a unique way.  I have seen it arc over a ship and deploy mines behind them, causing them to basically ram into you full force with no armor.  Also, normal mines have an OK chance of setting 5 stacks normally, but incendiary mines will almost always set 4-5 components with 5 stacks.

That being said, it is mediocre in carronades but that is about it.  Compared to heavy clip (or loch in the H. Carro) it really has no advantage against balloons and if you are using heavy carronade to cause engineers to panic, charged or heavy work better for taking out components.  Lumberjack loch has closer range and can effectively be kept up close to indefinitely with good engineering.  I suppose incendiary gatling could force a choice between chemspray and mallet if the engagement has been going for several clips, but most ships will either be able to keep chemsprays up during the loss of DPS from greased or they will have lost armor anyway and it doesn't matter.

Offline Ayetach

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2015, 11:55:27 am »
I know this sounds kinda silly but what if we considered the idea of using incindiary for weapons that are more specialized for certain roles, for instance the light flak. There`s generally not a productive means of shooting that before the armor break, but if you used incindiary up until the break and stick with standard rounds perhaps that might serve a secondary purpose and give the engineer gunning on it a means to keep shooting instead of waiting. It would put more stress on engineers for the damage and fires incurred (however small they are) onto the target ship.

After all it doesn`t lose its damage per shot, it simply has a slower firing rate and smaller clip size. Its slower projectile speed *could* serve a beneficial purpose - and let me be clear here, this is not the IDEAL setup but as something a pilot might consider toying with for guns like the light flak when using ammo types like incindiary. :)

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2015, 01:01:05 pm »
Incendiary rounds on a flak means you can get a little bit closer (I think 120m) with armed shots, great if you want to use Flak on a Junker with gatling, even a pyramidion fat flak becomes that little bit more effective at the closer rangers because of this, and as you mentioned yes, it makes waiting for armour breaks less rudimentary as the flak becomes a weapon to add harassing to the teams engineers.. So yes I can see that being effective! :)

Hmm I wonder about the viability of Incendiary in a Hades for close range now...

Offline Dementio

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2015, 01:25:17 pm »
The thing is, that if you want to use weapons outisde their specialized roles another weapon would do better. This is essentially the weakness of incendiary.
Adding stress to engineers with an incendiary explosive gun generally doesn't work, because the explosive gun is intended to kill the enemy. And often times paired up with a piercing gun that will destroy the enemy armor, and also a flamer, banshee or hades would do better in adding stress in terms of fire. Even that might not work if the enemy is top notch with their anti fire stuff.

Also, a flak inside arming time is can still do a significant amount of hull damage that everybody seems to underestimates. A mortar is better of course in close range, because it doesn't get a damage reduction because of any arming time and so you can shoot like half a mortar clip before the enemy armor dies and still have enough left to kill them.
Greased hades has better dps and maybe more fires per second than incendiary hades, but if you want to create as many fires as possible, hades is not the way to go anyway. If you get incendiary arming time close to the enemy than you want to consider a gatling anyway.

What I can see work though is when you pair an incendiary mortar not with a piercing gun, but with a carronade or even an artemis and disable the living hell outta them and when the armor does die you can use normal mortar for maximum dps and kill them in one clip. But then again, a banshee might do better...

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2015, 06:21:06 pm »
The way I see it, it's generally a tradeoff between heatsink and incendiary.

Heatsink is great on the light flak and is second only to burst in terms of dmg per clip. The reduction in clip and fire rate from incendiary are too much.
The difference between incendiary range and greased/heatsink on a hades is too little to make it work in my opinion. The dps is too low.
I experimented with double/triple incendiary carronades at one point, it's entertaining atleast.

I have found a use for incendiary on lumberfish and flak spires. The extra 40 meters (compared to heatsink/greased) for lumberjack has some use as an alternative to lochnagar. I like lesmok heatsink incendiary/greased/loch.
For the flak it's about 60 meters less than heatsink. In many cases I'd still prefer heatsink, but incendiary can work. I wouldn't bring a gunner on a flak spire though. My preference is spanner mallet buff charged/loch.

Quote
What I can see work though is when you pair an incendiary mortar not with a piercing gun, but with a carronade or even an artemis and disable the living hell outta them and when the armor does die you can use normal mortar for maximum dps and kill them in one clip. But then again, a banshee might do better...
I'm not a fan of incendiary mortar. I find that burst mortar is fairly effective against components, wears down armor/balloon, and starts some fires. I love carro + burst mortar pyra.
Does anyone know if there are two fire stack chances from double explosive weapons? A chance for primary and a chance when dealing AOE?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 06:28:34 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Ayetach

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Re: Incendiary Rounds
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2015, 07:39:25 pm »
The way I see it, it's generally a tradeoff between heatsink and incendiary.

Heatsink is great on the light flak and is second only to burst in terms of dmg per clip. The reduction in clip and fire rate from incendiary are too much.
The difference between incendiary range and greased/heatsink on a hades is too little to make it work in my opinion. The dps is too low.
I experimented with double/triple incendiary carronades at one point, it's entertaining atleast.

Well the point I was making was providing the gungineer in this instance who normally handles the light flak to provide some kind of distraction and to a lesser extent additional damage incurred on the target before hull break - because normally most captains would prefer they only shoot after the hull is stripped. If I were captaining a ship where I had my gungineer performing this I would have them stick with standard ammo when the hull does break - that way you return to a larger clip and faster firing rate from what incindiary does. Just timing it to make sure after the engagement starts has to be a bit precise so as the flak is ready to go when the hull does indeed break. The use of flak in this example doesn`t have to necessarily be focused on the hull, it can hit other components and start fires where chem sprays are not frequently upkept often enough - again this serves more a distraction than any real disable but for targets like a mobula or spire, engineers would eventually have to be pulled off their weapons to address the fires aboard their ship - meaning less guns firing and less damage one`s own ship.

Now take that idea into the equation of a hades flak pyramidian, even though the gunner may have broken the hull after said shots, they might likely have additional shots and continue with those, the barrage from both weapons that continuously open up on that target ship would mean theoretically it would incur continual damage and its eventual destruction. Although it won`t be a 1-2 knock out like most conventional strategies provide - it would however offer an unusually different play style. Which for some might be a refreshing change of pace.

Incindiary is one of those kinds of ammos that can be reasonably flexible with a variety of weapons its used on and offer an interesting manner of tactical use if players so wish.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 07:41:53 pm by Ayetach »