The Meta, the Carronade and the Counter

[Dementio]

What counters what? When is victory considered hopeless when it comes to ship and their builds only?

Discuss and share! Assume 1v1 scenario, but adding counters to entire ship combination can't be too bad either.

Do the Meta-Builds counter anything or are they just to be countered?

If a team brings two of the same builds and its enemy team brings counter to that, which happens to be twice of the same ship again, does the counter still work?


I feel like Fish do not counter Mobulas that have Hades, double Artemis, Carronade and a Flamer very well.
People tend to say Fish always wins against Squids. Is that true though? There must be a build where the Squid will stand victorious. Looking at the lack of Squids in competitive and how everything works in pub matches, this might just be theoretical talk.

Goldfish in general seem like they counter very well. What's best to counter the fish of OP lion gun/Carronade?

[Replaceable]

(Lhr counters rhs.)

Spire vs. Hades flak. Almost certain win for pyra if 1v1.

Blenderfish vs. Junker. Almost all the time.

Hades/banshee vs. A mobula.

Piercing and explosive damage vs. Pyramidion.

Chem spray vs. Fire.

[Crafeksterty]

Hades flak pyrais a good counter to spire.
But that is mostly due to how hard it can be to disable the front guns of a pyra. That ram can stop direct shots.
Meaning a Spire would answer with its standard sniper build (mercury + 2 artemis + heavy flak) but the artemis will not get the weapons anyway.
Instead the better counter to hades flak pyra is Dual artemis HWACHA. Just dedicating itself to disabling with an engineer on the spire to spare for hades shots.

Mercuries hit galleons pretty hard because of how easy it can be to hit those heavy weapons. Artemis, sure they do their job but mercuries also add in armor braking for such a tanky ship.

People with mid-long range ships need to start using more mines versus metamideons.
Mobulas need this as setting up mines allready makes the pyra HAVE to change and turn, making the route at wich it will go to the mobula a very predictable one.

Lumberjack hits the Junker pretty hard.


What i hate seeing is ship stacking. Like dual pyramideons or junkers. I think mostly because these are the only ships that know how to cover eachother well. With the knowledge that junker and pyra is closest to the most standard ship in the game. I mean, have a pyra ship with junker armor and speed+turning just without the ram and mass and you have a very powerfull all standard ship. Galleons cannot exactly cover eachother. Spires currently are unable to perform as a team. They quite litteraly need to stack ships AND weapons in order for 2 spires to work to a degree, theyl just find themselves as one of them being the bait. While 2 squids and 2 goldfishes have next to 0 teamwork. The thing that squids can do is bring different weapons. That way it can be a bit more confusing as to wich ship has what weapon.
Lets not forget mobula stacking. That is also a thing.

One of the things that determines builds is also the maps.
Dunes imo is a very shallow map. It begs for sniping. While other maps deny it.

[Dementio]

I don't think the map matters too much as it is just about a plain mindset: What counters what?
In theory, long range could work on small maps too, it would just be harder to maintain range and gun arcs.
However, one could also include the very maps where this or that counter fails to counter against this or that ship/build.

Ship stacking really limits your team's flexibility what with 2 ships having the same advantages and disadvantages.

Regarding the Mobula and mine thing, because the Gat/Carro Pyra is as strong as it is and not rare at all, I thought about trying to counter specifically this build with a Mobula. That involves lesmok Gatling, because they will get too close for hades anyway, double artemis and a top top, middle top Mine Launcher. It's sillyness has yet to be tested, though.
I usually don't trust mines to hit, so I want to avoid using them on pretty much every ship I have, with a few exceptions.

Junkers have a general problem when dealing with flechette damage. I heard it isn't so bad once it brings 2 or 3 carronades, which sounds almost as bad as double heavy Carronade Galleon side ("They are destroying your balloon? Destroy their balloon more!").


The ship combination of Metamidion and Blenderfish is a pretty solid one. They can close distance rather quickly, disable a ship and focus fire the not disabled ship. Is that one un-counterable, are mines the only possible solution or is there a less silly counter?

[Crafeksterty]

The mines is for control. Not a direct counter. If the pilot can keep the ship nearby a wall of his own mines without hitting them himself, he pretty much has a giant obstacle the enemy has to meneuver around.

On a spire, when a pyra is heading for me, i usualy shoot mines then and leave a trail of mines. This does help and make the pyra move around, up and under and around. If he hit a mine,he is dead quicker. If he didnt he will still die just not as quick. On the latter, the mines are still up and what il do is use the obstacle of mines as a difficulty for the enemy to approach me. Which actualy works. So having 5 mines around in some area does fudge up the enemy pilot if you have good control of your own mines.

Regarding junkers and carro, that is sad because i feel like that with any ship versus carro. It has to fight fire with fire. But currently i cannot test this out in my state but a junker that has drogue chute allready activated before the baloon brakes will stay up in the air for much longer on the same level that it was than activating it after baloon brakes. I remember having this conversation before, must have forgotten it. Ide like someone to try it out next time versus carro build. Just drogue chute constantly when you know the baloon will go out. How much will that hold for your gunners to shoot down the ship anyway?

[HamsterIV]

Meta close range builds can be countered with superior fire power of glass cannon ships like the spire or mobula in a head to head 1v1, however that assumes the crew is functional. If the crew misses shots or is out of position the meta build will have an easy victory. The meta builds are more forgiving of under performing crew members, which is why you see them more in Pub matches.

As for fighting carro ships it is more a technique thing than a ship counter. Granted sniping them out of the air before they get close is the easiest way to counter them, but it is still possible to lay the hurt down on one with the standard gat mortar. Carro ships can counter to sniper ships due to sniper weapons having terrible vertical arcs and arming times.