Author Topic: Munker Art Online: Declassified  (Read 4175 times)

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Munker Art Online: Declassified
« on: December 17, 2014, 04:48:36 am »

Alright pay attention all you wanna be Munker pilots out there. I'm only going to go over this once. In part because I've seen a lot of terrible "Munker" builds that just put a stain on the name "Munker." So enough is enough, time to declassify this baby.

First things first, if you have a concept of allies and helping others, you may leave the thread now. There is no need for kind people here. True Munker pilots are here to mine and we don't give a powder monkey's arse about allies or helping others. All targets are expendable to a Munker.

Now that said, what is a Munker?

The Munker concept began life in Desert Scrap. At first it was a 5 mine launcher build and it was utilized for ultimate point control by myself and Captain Phoenix in the Dev app testing of the Mine launcher. Yes, that rascal is one of the founders of Munker combat.

Since then the Munker concept has morphed into a vessel with at least 2+ mine launchers that is able to block two angles. However, it is time to refine this definition.

There are good munkers, bad munkers, and ugly munkers.

Good Munkers:

Good munkers have perfect cohesion between pilot and crew. You know what they are going to do and they know what you are going to do. This is the most difficult mix to obtain but when you do, no ship can touch you.

Your mine mount placement is on a rear side mount and the bow mount. Why? Because a single mine launcher cannot properly deploy a shield wall in time to stop an attacker. Also the under deck mounts get used less and an engineer being able to walk by and deploy a mine in the process of going about their work, is necessary at times. As well as the pilot.

As a pilot you will often times be rebuilding balloons or constantly fine tuning your ship postioning. Between that, you'll have moments where you'll have time to spare. The front mine must remain active at all costs so the engineers will leave the side mine to fix the ship and thus allow you to jump on it momentarily.

Shield Walls are a term I use. Often times I call for "shields up" and that is the cue for the crew to wall off an approach angle by making a screen of mines in the air.

The strength of this build comes in being able to not only deploy superior shields, but also to mine at or near a full 180 deg. You can then dedicate the remaining mounts to disable or kill builds. The concept being, if a ship breaches the shield wall, they'll likely either fly under or over you. This puts them in cqc range of your kill/disable side. Any vessel that enters this area is considered dead. They won't leave it alive unless you're outnumbered and you cannot sacrifice your shield side.

The last gun mount that goes between the mines, is a toss up. I often like to put a banshee there because if your shield side catches a ship, the banshee is the perfect annoyance weapon to keep fire stacks pouring on as well as do some perma. All while from the safety of your clear airspace. But you can certainly change it. Carronades can work or if you are really confident in your mine gunner, you can stick a flak on there to kill. Ideally you don't want something that takes time to aim or time for shots to reach the target. But you could also put another mine launcher there. Put some steak on that mine overkill when you do that. You just sacrifice any ability to hit targets outside the mine range.

Repair work on Munkers is very grueling. The ship is designed to be focused on and take fire. But there is one major key...all guns are expendable except the bow. The bow must never go down or if it does, never stay down for long. The bow gun is your life line in "oh shit" moments.

Engines are also just as important on a Munker as they are on a Squid, keep them up.

Necessary crew mixes:
-Standard /w gunner. You want a gunner for the ammo distances. Run Lesmok, Incendiary, and either charged or burst.
-All engineer builds are doable but all the engineers have to run with a different ammo type so they can interchange. This requires a lot of extra coordination and is harder to control enemies with.
-Engineer ammo needs to be Lesmok or Heatsink. Something they can preload and forget is useful and Heatsink can take their mind off of chemming the guns. Ultimately it depends what your other guns are.

Pilot details:
-Take spanner, you're going to be rebuilding a lot.
-Take Kerosene. You bring Kero because you need to be able to accelerate and adjust your mine distances quickly. Also to escape people who breach the shield.
-Other tools, vary. Drogue can be handy at times, but the one problem is you have to remain on the wheel for it and sometimes your crew can't be back there rebuilding the balloon as fast if everything is going bad. Really the pilot is the 3rd/4th engineer, or the extra miner. This is not a do nothing post. You must be flexible in not only managing the boat but also repairing or shooting.

Bad Munker:

Bad Munkers have dual quadrant split shields. While in theory you'd think this would be stronger since you can block 2 sides, however in reality it is weaker. You cannot deploy shields fast enough and while you can block on two sides, it takes longer and you cannot overwhelm a foe unless they really screw up. Foes also will not typically brave gun arc sides unless they have a clear advantage.

Typically these have mines on the rear mounts with kill builds or disable on the bow. This kind of Munker has an identity crisis and while it can work, you are putting a huge hole in the middle of your shields which people will exploit. If one launcher goes down, the ability for the vessel to recover is drastically less than a Good Munker.

Bad Munkers can also have dual mines on one side. Again the weakness is being unable to hit targets on both sides which will happen. Don't think for a second it won't.

Good munkers with guns out, except for the bow, can effectively repel attackers from all sides depending how the pilot positions and how the gunner adjusts. Bad munkers cannot and must turn the ship completely if they want to block an attacker on a disabled side.

Ugly Munkers:

Putting mine launchers under deck on opposing sides where they won't get used, or using mines with harpoons or other  bizarre builds is what ugly munkers look like. These are vessels that should never be feared and can be easily swatted down without much effort.

Munker Weaknesses:

Pretty obvious, you have a huge balloon. But foes must close range to take it out. This is where the kerosene comes in handy. With a good miner on the bow, you use the kero to close on the blender, bringing him into mine range. All the while you have mines coming up in front.

So what happens is, if he moves forward to close attack, he'll face mines, if he rushes back and you deploy behind him, he faces mines. During this time your balloon is going out over and over. But you will beat him or force him into a wall. You can also use Kero to backpedal id something goes wrong.

Your biggest enemy is Lumberjacks. In fact if facing Jacks, I'd either take a different ship or take a merc on some hardpoint. Something you can use to take out that Jack quickly is helpful.

Disable squids can be trouble cause they can often times evade shields or sneak in other angles. However, if one gets behind you, don't freak out. It takes time for that little blender to take down the balloon. Time for the flames to do much also. You have about 1 or 2 shots at breaking their angle and fighting back. Use the kerosene.

Likely the squid is right on your butt cause that is your blind spot. When they are, go full reverse, gun it with kero and smash them off. Squids bounce a bit so it'll likely make them readjust their angle, buying you time to rebuild balloon and get your own kill side/disable side on him. Show the squid the foolishness of sitting around in a blind spot.

Then lastly, believe it or not, other munkers can be problems but not why you'd think. Junkers move so slow and can stop so quick that they can actually navigate mine fields better than other ships at times. There is also high armor which takes a long time to cut through. To top that off they don't build up a lot of momentum so impacts also don't affect them as badly. Case in point, take all mine junkers in a 2v2/etc and you'll likely have a match that takes over an hour. But take mobulas and you'll be done in no time.

Munker Gunner Theory:

Gunners on Munkers have the greatest burden. They are responsible for the entire ship at any one moment and must not only adjust for ship movement but also enemy ship movement. A good Munker gunner will be able to predict at least 5-10 seconds ahead of where the battle is. Even more than that is better. You have to be constantly switching ammo types and adjusting ranges.

It is often a good idea to preload your short range ammo first unless you have a visual on target approach. Why? Because often times if a boat is charging, it will reach CQC range before your mines deploy. So the best option is to just have the mines fall short. If your balloon goes out or you take damage then so be it. You've effectively stopped the forward momentum. From there switch to standard or long range mines and start building the cage. Your pilot in the meantime can then move in closer, this adjusts the ranges and forces the foe to react. They can only move in 2 directions unless they have hydro and if they chute it actually sets up an even more favorable position for you. When both routes of escape are cut, you have your prey trapped. Mine them mercilessly.

Also it is a good idea to work on speed deploying. Play as an engineer and work on deploying quickly and accurately with only 1-2 sec. It is doable. It just takes practice. you have to keep an eye on the battle and be already thinking mine placement before you take up the gun. Then you just adjust the arc quickly and fire one away before you go back to repairing. I've done this many times with Zuka with enough success rate where he'd purposely put mines on the side of his Pyra just for me to use.

Munker Pilot Theory:

Some has been mentioned before but much of Munker piloting is involving quick action on rebuilds, shooting, and adjusting ranges. Despite what others might think, a Munker is rarely stationary for long. By constantly adjusting speed and positions you are laying a staggered minefield which is extremely difficult for foes to navigate.

Also be mindful that in order for Munkers to work it requires your foe to be reckless enough to commit to CQC. Now, that doesn't mean you are completely helpless should you run into an intelligent foe. It just means you have to take your flying from a defensive posture to offensive.

Offensive Munker flying is dangerous and can often be a double edge sword. Success rate is low, however, depending on the map you can execute it well and force a back pedaling foe to make a major mistake. Generally it involves taking a superior position above a retreating foe then laying down mines as you push full speed with kero. You won't catch the fastest boats but it can force a foe to panic, which is then your moment to strike.

90% of Munker play is mental. Like gunners, you gotta be predicting the battle. But for pilots you are often times looking over 10 seconds ahead. You get in your foe's head. Make them panic, make them commit mistakes. Then also mentally predict not only ship movements but also watching your gunner mine placement. Then to top that off, being mindful of other foes. Hence, why Kero is a necessary tool.

A "good munker" build can successfully repel 3+ ships, without help, if you and your crew is working in unison. Even if you start to lose the fight, it will take your foes a long time to finally down you. This allows friendly targets to regroup and help.

Keep in mind tho, if you see a friendly in trouble or in a 2 v 1, the best course of action is to mine, not only his attackers, but also him. Stay at mine range, don't close in to help. Be merciless. Don't think for a second you can save them. Their life was expendable the moment they teamed with a Munker. Never hesitate.

Appropriate "Friendly" Targets:

If you've made it this far and still have delusions that you can be friends with ships waving the same color as you, then consider this the last chance to face reality.

When teaming with a Munker, an ally must understand this. If they get greedy for kills and brave a minefield to reach a foe you are mining, their life is forfeit. Should they rant and rage over chat, you just block list. It isn't your fault. They were the ones who teamed with you. A munker is never at fault! Mines happen, deal with it.

That said, ideally Munkers are there to cause chaos, to break a foe's order and concentration. Allied ships must be ready to take advantage of this. I remember the first competitive match we took a Munker into. It was Paritan Rumble in the twilight of the merc OP era. I discussed this with Brick beforehand and we deployed with a shield and sword setup. I'd be the shield, he'd be the sword. The shield would always remain up and block approaches, while he'd snipe through the minefield or kill any foe that tried to break through. Foes that broke through would become his prey while I'd keep their ally at bay. Forcing them to sit helplessly and watch as Brick tore them to pieces.

The plan worked. Sadly getting it to work more often is problematic as the game has matured and crews have moved on. But this is an ideal setup an ally can take and not become target bait. Just need to practice it a lot.

If you are flying with a Munker, you must keep in mind your role. Also the fact that you are on your own. While there are 2+ ships listed, literally you should not count that Munker as an ally. They are a powerful tool to set up engagements for you to dominate. Good Munker pilots realize this and are often satisfied to merely make foes rage while you feast on the remains.

This is also where there is another weakness to Munker builds. Foes can just ignore the Munker and focus on you. In fact, I would do this myself as tangling with a Munker is often more hassle than it is worth. Unless I know the pilot is inexperienced. If hes got a bad build and doesn't know how to fly the Munker, he's easy prey.

So keeping this in mind, you need to fly in a way which lets the Munker do it's thing and also forces your foes to address the Munker problem so you can exploit it.

Closing:

These ships have a well earned reputation in not only making foes rage quit but also allies. If you use it, master it, and continue to use it, you must be prepared to pay the price of using it. Have block lists ready and never feel remorse for those who won't stop charging into your mines. If they can't figure out or have anger management problems, oh well.

I've never let this information outside of TBB or select few because I wanted to see what others would come up with, and also because it would tip off others to how to deal with them. Its much better to make foes work for their kills than it is to give them the gameplan isn't it?

However, I think we've reached a point with this game where people have developed ways to counter Munkers and now we're at the point where I've seen too many Munkers succumbing in battles which they should have an advantage. So for all Munker kind and Munker pilots everywhere, its time to up your game! Use this, work out new ideas, master them. I want to see Munkers wreaking havoc, not being thought of lightly.

I've yet to face a Munker in a Munker fight that I couldn't defeat. Maybe with this posted I'll finally face some skilled Munker captains.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:57:51 am by Gilder Unfettered »

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 12:20:11 pm »
I will fly a munker every now and then when the crew requests it or my ally is being an imbecilic. It takes a few matches to get my ranges right, unless the enemy is being completely stupid and charging me. Since I suspect this thread is going to be the Munker knowledge base I would like to add some tips for fighting a munker.

1) Don't charge the munker. In fact avoid the munker and go for his ally first, munkers are horrible support ships and nobody in their right mind would fly close enough to one to provide mutual support.

2) Attack the munker with long range weaponry. Munkers are short to mid range ships that don't really excel at charging opponents. They are most effective when the enemy comes to them.

3) If you must fight up close, find the sweet spot between lesmok and vanilla mines and camp there. Munkers can only hurt you at very precise ranges if you are in the zone between those ranges you are relatively safe.

4) Approach at an oblique angle mines are incredibly difficult guns to aim correctly, don't make it easier by flying strait at them.

5) Have you crew call out mine locations. You can't see every thing from the helm and you are likely to blunder into a mine you don't see if the air is full of them.

6) Don't stay in the blast radius of mines for any length of time just because the mine has not proximity detonated doesn't mean it is not the 5th mine from a mine launcher. The next one the gunner shoots will auto detonate that sucker.

Offline Replaceable

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 02:09:29 pm »
If I fly a munker its all mines, or all mines bar the top deck left and right guns which is gat or carro based on whether the closest range ship is a pyramidion.

I also request my gunner to have, lesmok, incendiary and lochnagar. As loch mines a) hurt and b) are the closest range (if you royally cock up and your being rammed.) And default ammo is the same range as burst and charged.

But I can appreciate why you wouldn't have loch, as from your post I can see you like them at arms length. Which is understabdable I can appreciate the power of charged and burst :D And plus loch mines also hurt you a hell of a lot too.

One of my favourite thing about mines is when mines that are in mid air and haven't deployed yet explode along with deployed mines for so much destruction.

My other favourite thing is pub stomping with a munker and being called a noob when they don't realise mines are a relatively difficult gun.

My favourite munker moment is when I had a 19 win streak in a munker.. With two gunners. That crew setup on a munker has since been named 'The Thaedael' after the magnificent efforts of my solo main engineer throughout. Grats once again Thaedael xD

Either that it getting a double kill in a 2v2 with one mine. That happened during the Thaedael win streak. Awesome.

I feel i should mention the spud nick trademarked mines of mortar junker too. Front flamer mine/mortar combo both sides. The pub destroyer let me tell you. :D

And now a quick shout out to the best miners I've flown with. In no particular order:

Miki N' Ead
Spud Nick
Melon
Renaulde
Ightrill
Happy doom
Andika
Fred the Fifth
(I'll post more when I think of them :D)

I'll end this post here I've chatted long enough about mines xD

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2014, 09:40:39 pm »
Flamer/mortar is an old mix which I used to use exclusively on Squids before flame nerfs. Its not something really new. Yes it is very powerful in pub matches, but competitive play it gets nowhere. All due to chem cycles. You won't breach teams like Cake running flame/mortar. They'll just sit there laughing at your fire from behind their frothy chemmed components.

It is best not to invest too heavily in pub builds if you plan to go competitive. Which is in some ways what this is all about. I've seen too many pub Munkers in competitive and they are utter crap. Its embarrassing at times because being one of the pioneers of it, I know the limits and how powerful it can be in the right hands. The current CQC disable meta screams Munker heaven. Casters say..."oh look a munker!" they get excited, I do too, then I see the build and I just cringe and say "yep, they lost." I spent months refining and developing builds and the theory behind them that can handle competitive engagements.

Trouble is, competitive constantly shifts and while the Munker doesn't, allied ships do. Munker battles are hard to win when both ships don't have a unified plan that revolves around the Munker. Your copilot needs to look at their setup then ask the question,"how will it work with a Munker?" Lots of practice helps. If they are locked in to thinking "meta" is the only way, then they'll often die needlessly while you continue doing your Munker thing. When metas shift, styles shift. So you need people refining builds that can coexist with Munkers and researching new ones. I just don't have the time, nor do others who used to run with these builds. Clans like Cake or other Munker pilots which love wacky stuff like this are ones I hope will benefit.

Offline Replaceable

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 11:35:11 am »
Oh no doubt about that, flamer mortar is terrible in competitive. The mine supports it a bit with hull strip, but still 2/10 would not fight rydr with.

Competitive munkers are very rare, and many I feel under value it's potential.
I 100% agree the co ship to the munker must 'work around the munker.'

We did bring a mine on a junker once in SCS can't remember who it was against, but I do remember we swapped out the hades for a mine and had 2 Artemis aswell. With carro banshee close range. The map was paritan.
I remember the casters saying ooh I don't think this will work. But the mine was instrumental in our victory. Which surprised me. Moral of the story #believe in melon.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 11:38:16 am by Replaceable »

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2014, 04:49:27 pm »
"Its not a good munker match if you havent hit your ally atleast once with a mine."

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2014, 05:07:35 pm »
"Its not a good munker match if you havent hit your ally atleast once with a mine."

Its not a good munker match if you havent hit killed your ally atleast once thrice with a mine.

fixed ~

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2015, 08:34:27 am »
I just want to add, I've flown against a Gilder Munker before, it's a terrifying experience, pushing the ships range to make sure not to get too close, seeing the mine wall blocking off my path between me and the Munkers ally, trying to rush to my allies aid only to have my own ship launched a different direction.
And this guide is great for all potential munker pilots, crew should read too.

Offline The Mann

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Re: Munker Art Online: Declassified
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 09:03:56 am »
Miki N' Ead
Spud Nick
Melon
Renaulde
Ightrill
Happy doom
Andika
Fred the Fifth
(I'll post more when I think of them :D)


Meh? I do not see my name on this list? I guess we have never met in the skies before...  8)