Small Clip size, Small Reload [Gunner fix theory]

[Crafeksterty]

This shouldnt belong on the Feedback section as this is more on the discussion on weapons and how they are expected to be used with Ammo and gunners that we need to be more usefull.


What am i talking about here?
I recently tought about how ammo do have lots of effects for different guns but their effects arent used as in the end they arent as worth firing as the others.
That is because in this current state, some ammo types are stronger. But what if they are just stronger because of how the game sets up guns?

-Imagine the gattling only firing 30 shots by default. But it has increased 80% reload speed from what it is now.
That way, a gunner using the gattling could use different effects like incendiary, greased, Heatsink.

-Imagine the Artemis now shoots 2 shots per clip. But the reload is now 60% faster or more than now.
This would encourage different ammo types. Burst, lesmok, incendiary.

-How about a mercury that shoots 1 shot. but 50% faster reload. Charged and lesmok would be used.

Lets not forget it would be much easier placing Heatsink in these weapons.


Im talking about this because ive come up with an idea for a heavy weapon in the Feedback section that has a very small reload, so it shoots constantly, encouraging multiple ammo types.
But im not suggesting this for all guns in the game. Just a tought for some, or future weapons. Because, i admit if this would be an overhaul, it would change too much of the game.

The mine launcher and Heavy Flak, Twin Carronade are the only guns that can fully benefitt with a gunner on it because of their ammo type and how fast the reload is. It would be nice to see some weapons turn to benefitt more because of reload times being very fast.

Here are a list of weapons i think would benefit from being changed to better suit a gunner.
-Hades 3 shots, 50% less reload.
-Artemis (mentioned above)
-Mercury (Mentioned above)
-Lumberjack, 1 shot, 75% less reload.
-Light Carronade, 2 shots, 70% less reload
-Flamer 75% less clip size. 50% less reload.

Now, this would be a downright nerf to these guns when compared to the guns not touched on.
The rate of fire which these guns would fire would be different, and for some would be constant (Mercury, lumberjack) which maybe we dont want.

Im giving this out as a suggestion to better make you imagine how it would look like if all guns were allready like this.
So the question is, would this make you want to choose gunners because them firing certain or more weapons than today may be better with this option?


Its a discussion on Gunners ammo types versus the reload times we have today.

Ide rather have a new tool type for the gunner, like an instant activateable that changes the gun slightly, but enough for the gunner to use an ammo type and an instant activateable. But because muse want to find a way on making ammo more usefull. The reload and just being on a gun kinda allready settles how hard it is to put all 3 ammo to use.

[Indreams]

Would let me think about letting that one guy be a gunner.

But than, I'd have gunners tunnel-vision-glued to their gun, never taking that two backward steps to hit a component before going back on the gun.

It'd also make buffing very dependent. Experienced shooters can keep their guns buffed by buffing it during reload. I'm not sure how this will work with faster reload times.


Dunno. Might work, might not.

[Replaceable]

I think guns NOT being buffed is a good thing, it draws away from gunnjis and back into gunners.

But i think this would massively change the game. Like how people fly, the builds- everything, if that's a good thing.. I am unsure.

[Indreams]

What about, for certain guns, different ammo shoots a slightly altered projectiles?

Maybe incendiary Hades loses its arming time (or shorten it a lot). Lochnagar Hwacha shoots a two, powerful, accurate missiles. And explosive flare fires a firework?

I don't know if this is possible in the game, but it's an idea.


In fact, as I'm writing it, I find that it's an interesting brain storm...

[Crafeksterty]

Would let me think about letting that one guy be a gunner.

But than, I'd have gunners tunnel-vision-glued to their gun, never taking that two backward steps to hit a component before going back on the gun.

It'd also make buffing very dependent. Experienced shooters can keep their guns buffed by buffing it during reload. I'm not sure how this will work with faster reload times.

It shouldnt be buffed. It should be buffed by a buff engineer that buffs the gunners gun, not that a gun engineer gunning a gun. Why would a gun engineer be on a gun with this set up of guns?

But i think this would massively change the game. Like how people fly, the builds- everything, if that's a good thing.. I am unsure.

Ofcourse. I even stated that this is too much of an overhaul. Its more on the discussion of how the game would play out if this were the case.
In my eyes it seems like its just different. Currently, i really do think that gunners need a second tool TYPE. again, an instant activatable when on a gun. This is something only gunners would be able to do as they have enough slots on a gun to perform it. I say this because placing an ammo to a gun takes its sweet time. And while the gunner has the ammo on for the duration of the long clip, he could have something else during that.


Currently ammos seem to be designed to be used but its not worth it. Its mostly worth sticking to one ammo type for most guns. Only few guns like ive stated allow for gunners to be usefull with their ammos.

So, do we want gradual change to guns? Like the lumberjack imo could use this treatment. Maybe even the mercury.

How about a mix of weapons with long clips like the mortar, with weapons with short clips like maybe the gattling.
NOT SUGGESTION. Just a tought of it. Would that help gunners or not?

where is the issue etc.

[ShadedExalt]

What about, for certain guns, different ammo shoots a slightly altered projectiles?

Maybe incendiary Hades loses its arming time (or shorten it a lot). Lochnagar Hwacha shoots a two, powerful, accurate missiles. And explosive flare fires a firework?

I don't know if this is possible in the game, but it's an idea.


In fact, as I'm writing it, I find that it's an interesting brain storm...

That's genius.  Now, combine this with Crafersterty's Gunner TOOLS idea, and we have a Gunner fix.

[nhbearit]

While its definitely an interesting idea, it's an idea that tries to solve a problem that doesn't exist. The way I read your post, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you believe that gunners are underused and need a buff. I disagree with this. I see gunners all the time. In pub matches, in competitive matches, in silly matches, and in just about any other type of match that you can think of. The problem as I see it is one of perception. Gunner is THE MOST specialized of the classes. The ONLY thing a gunner can do effectively is shoot enemy ships out of the sky. If you have a build which works well with a gunner, (and by the way there are quite a few of them) a good gunner can send your ship's effectiveness OVER. THE. TOP. However, if you have a poor gunner, or if your ship can't get in a good place to use them effectively, they are basically useless.

As for smaller clips in guns, it would be a buff to the gunner that the gunner doesn't need. It would also nerf engineers by making it much harder to multitask. If an engineer can't use the reload time to do some form of maintenance, then you lose a good portion of what makes a great engineer truly great. Hell, it would even take out a good portion of what makes a great gunner truly great as well. One of the best traits a gunner can have is knowing when to swap ammos. Having guns reload quicker and more often would reduce the effect of skill across the board and make GoIO a much blander game.

[Alistair MacBain]

Interesting idea but i fear it takes aaway alot about the timing aspects of the game.
By reducing the clip size but buffing the reload the timings will shift and the famous oneclip kills or oneclip works of guns dont apply anymore.
Yes it encourages people to swap ammo much more but it also messes up timing along and most likely prolongs engagements and I rly dont think this is what we want.

[Crafeksterty]

Yeah the idea is a bit over the top i must admit.

And yes we do see lots of gunners. But do they use most of the ammo they have chosen?
How many times would an engineer be sufficent? In many cases it is alot. And in most cases for gunners they use up to 2 ammo and not 3.
Using these different ammo for each gun yields no better result than just one ammo for most weapons.

Gunners being specilised is a problem. They should be equal to engineers. The reason why i saying that because both classes do what they do on a ship equaly, its just where does one have more flexability. A gunner on a gun should be like he has an edge, while an engineer on a gun should feel like hes helping out much like a gunner helps out an engineer. For some gunner fix ideas ive seen posted + some of my own made me consider having 2 gunners. Because spire...

In anycase, yeah, the lower reload and smaller clips is pretty weird idea so to say. But it adheres better to the gunners ammo. Kinda fixing the problem backwards. Instead of thinking about how the gunners guns the guns, im making an idea of the gun being gunned So that is why its a theory of fix. If the ammo stays the same, the use of them would be much greater and actualy using more ammo type would yield more success on smaller clip but faster reloads. But currently not really.

There has to be a more active use of the gunner on a gun.
Like i suggested, an instant activatable that helps the gunner out. Mixing that with the ammo he loaded in. Giving a conflict of choice + potential gunning better than gunengineers on common gunengineer weapons (mortar, gattling, artemis etc of light weapons).

I forget to ask
What was the problem with that auto loader thing that gunners had once in the dev app? It wasnt exclusive to gunners, it was a different reload mechanic. What was it again?! I tottaly forget and forgot its discussion entierly D:

[Spud Nick]

I still find it strange that a gunner does less damage than a buff engineer.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Ultimately the only solution to this ancient debate is Muse giving gunners something unique which finally gives them a reason to exist outside of special builds. Whether it be passive buff or whatever.

Course at the same time, if we're doing passive buffs, we should probably have them on all classes. Since there is a leveling system, can even develop a talent tree. But likely we'll see this more for adventure mode if they do it. Its also an extremely complex and unnecessary thing to do for a PVP game. But PVE content, yep, anything to make the player more OP.

[Sammy B. T.]

I still find it strange that a gunvner does less damage than a buff engineer.

Why, a gunner does less work.

[GeoRmr]

I still find it strange that a gunvner does less damage than a buff engineer.

Why, a gunner does less work.

And they shouldn't do - why should engineers do more things to guns than gunners?

Make buff hammer 2 tools - 1 for engineers that buffs engines hull and balloons - 1 for gunners that buffs guns

problem solved.

(OH NOES PARADIGM! OH MY GOD SO CONFUSING A TOOL IN AN AMMO SPOT!- oh lol, range finder and spyglass; turns out my suggestion actually fixes Muses wonky paradigm.)

[Richard LeMoon]

Once the buff no longer increases DPS, buff engineers will drop substantially in popularity.

[GeoRmr]

Once the buff no longer increases DPS, buff engineers will drop substantially in popularity.

I'm against the idea of rethinking the buff-hammers effect on guns -  it just makes junkers and galleons so enormously op if their hulls are buffed with no damage increase available on guns to match.

EDIT: sorry about the derail - cool idea crafek but I think it will damage (the pretty nice currently) balance far too much.