Author Topic: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)  (Read 24589 times)

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2014, 01:33:42 pm »
[...]
Don't even bother taking on Junkers, they'll just sit there laughing at your gatling while their armor never goes down.
[...]
Curious to see if Muse will touch up the Junkers in another test build. I'd like to see a shift in something there.

Solution: Carroflamer Pyra.  Not sure about the big leagues, but it works really well even in normal matches!

Junker changes would be nice...

Offline Frogger

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2014, 02:01:17 pm »
[...]
Don't even bother taking on Junkers, they'll just sit there laughing at your gatling while their armor never goes down.
[...]
Curious to see if Muse will touch up the Junkers in another test build. I'd like to see a shift in something there.

Solution: Carroflamer Pyra.  Not sure about the big leagues, but it works really well even in normal matches!

Junker changes would be nice...

I think that's one of the issues people have with junkers, though - they're practically unbeatable vs. non-blender builds (if you have good captains and crew), but against blenders they basically don't stand a chance (again, assuming the blender team knows what they're doing). There's not much middle ground. I can tell you from a year of competitive play as a metajunker pilot that I'll win 95% of the time vs. conventional builds, and lose 95% of the time versus blenders. It's just that clear-cut.

That's another reason why the meta "settles" towards the all-pyramidion matchups that are so common as of late. Pyras don't do anything particularly well, but they don't have any glaring weaknesses either. And in the current atmosphere of Hardcounter Lobbies of Icarus, that's what matters most.

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2014, 02:10:35 pm »
[...]
Don't even bother taking on Junkers, they'll just sit there laughing at your gatling while their armor never goes down.
[...]
Curious to see if Muse will touch up the Junkers in another test build. I'd like to see a shift in something there.

Solution: Carroflamer Pyra.  Not sure about the big leagues, but it works really well even in normal matches!

Junker changes would be nice...

I think that's one of the issues people have with junkers, though - they're practically unbeatable vs. non-blender builds (if you have good captains and crew), but against blenders they basically don't stand a chance (again, assuming the blender team knows what they're doing). There's not much middle ground. I can tell you from a year of competitive play as a metajunker pilot that I'll win 95% of the time vs. conventional builds, and lose 95% of the time versus blenders. It's just that clear-cut.

That's another reason why the meta "settles" towards the all-pyramidion matchups that are so common as of late. Pyras don't do anything particularly well, but they don't have any glaring weaknesses either. And in the current atmosphere of Hardcounter Lobbies of Icarus, that's what matters most.

audible thump as my jaw hits the deck

Wow, OK.  Time to nerf Blender builds and Junkers...

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2014, 03:12:20 pm »
I wonder if it is time for that gat distance to come back.

If that happens, then were going nowhere with balance. The purpose of balance is to get closer and closer to a balanced game that will stay for a long time.
Currently, the gattlings we have now is very good. It does strip armor faster than before but it requiers one to be closer. Buffed greased gattling should still apply.


Oh and, yeah. I always tought junkers were in a weird place. They can pull of dangerous things but baloon popping does hit it hard.
The pilot will always be able to help on the baloon. Drogue chutting before the baloon goes down does keep it up in the sky for some time.
I think the hard hit here is how flachette and shatter do SO MUCH versus hull when it transfers. Lumberjack can destroy armor and perma like it is a hades and a light flak when it is shooting a downed baloon. The baloon on the junker should be a weakness because the hull is very hard to hit. But guns like lumber do huge numbers versus baloon.

My spire build versus junkers is Lumber+Hades+2light flaks all pointing at the baloon. Each gun helping eachother on destroying the baloon then the armor then the health.

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2014, 03:30:47 pm »
My spire build versus junkers is Lumber+Hades+2light flaks all pointing at the baloon. Each gun helping eachother on destroying the baloon then the armor then the health.

I'd probably load one flak with burst and have it snipe components, but that's just me.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2014, 04:16:57 pm »
Yeah that is the problem with Junkers, you need blender builds to kill them or you need to charge ram the balloon. Even then, if you are in kill zone they can just rebuild and tear you up before you have a chance to do anything. All ships in the game are killable with both kill builds and blender but Junkers...unless you run double gat + kill on a junker, you won't cut through them.

Offline IvKir

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2014, 03:26:53 am »
But you can still counter Junkers with good hwachafish or hwacha-spire with good crew. Or you can kill it's secondary engines. And, of course, good hwacha-blender galleon is a nightmare for Junkers.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2014, 03:59:27 am »
Thats what we are saying, Junkers only really have one counter, disable builds. Hwacha is disable. Every ship in the game is weak against disable but can also be taken down with kill builds. Junkers vs  kill builds take a lot longer than it should. Its not a heavy warship but can survive like one. Due in part to the distribution of components. Shots often hit components rather than hull/armor. The solution to this used to be heavy clip. But then everything was heavy clip and no other clip was used. I wouldn't mind HC seeing a little bump to make it more attractive, maybe shot distance. But , its a delicate area.

Offline Frogger

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2014, 04:01:06 pm »
But you can still counter Junkers with good hwachafish or hwacha-spire with good crew. Or you can kill it's secondary engines. And, of course, good hwacha-blender galleon is a nightmare for Junkers.

Honestly, at the highest levels of play, all other things being equal, hwachas are pretty ineffective against well-crewed focus-firing metajunkers. Particularly once your crew is trained in "peaching" (duckspeak for rebuilding to within one click and waiting), you can easy rebuild a downed gatling immediately after a hwacha barrage and gatsnipe the hwacha right out until the rest of your systems are back online. Blending is the only totally reliable (perhaps excessively so!) counter to a junker

Spires are even worse off - so much as look at a spire with an artemis or a hades and it falls to pieces. Focus fire six of those guns on a spire? Good night, Irene.

The same with close range galleons. With its exposed guns, sluggish movement, and huge hull profile, 6x artemis-hades fire will simultaneously pierce, explode, flame, and shatter everything on the ship reliably at ranges up to 1300m. Is Mr. Galleon getting too close? Put 'er in reverse.

This is my experience, at least.

Of course, positioning miracles will mitigate all these limitations. But why not take the stronger build, create the same positioning magic, and have an even better outcome? I've never been one for handicapping myself intentionally.

As an aside, what I would say generally is that if the junker is to have its primary stats nerfed, then it should somehow be made less vulnerable to blending. The current lack of junkers in competitive is very telling - basically, a team's reliance on junkers frequently leads to the opposing team's switch to a blender-based hard counter in the lobby. It would be much better to find a happier middle ground, I think.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2014, 04:06:17 pm by Frogger »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2014, 05:38:46 pm »
Yeah agreed. The one issue with making a junker less blendable is the fact that they can't really change the balloon. Unless they added armor plating to the balloon in spots. Reduce the hit box of it but still, it wouldn't be Pyra level.

The old way things were was, you countered disable with killing power. Disable took too long to be effective half the time and the risk of a disable ship being killed was extremely high as it needed longer time to get it's job done. They could exist in 3v3 but 2v2 it was tougher due to focus fire. You'd have to get disable going while dodging fire and surviving long enough for your ally to get the other boat off your back. With the game being slower and movement poor, pilots just couldn't do this. This only fed more into the kill boat mentality and the departure from blenders/etc. Then Art was super buffed and finally everyone realized it was better to sit back and snipe than it was to rush and take the higher risk. I said it back then...what point was there for teams to close range and risk it? Everyone was screaming to charge and do something exciting, but the game was just too slow. If you aren't confident in your ship movement in cqc then flying turret sniping is all you can do.

So now we're in a place where disable is better than killing and ranged cannot repel anything. The weakness in explosive heavy weapons is painfully clear. Galleon broadsides should be things to be feared, not things to charge into. This is a great time for a new short range explosive weapon to be introduced. The threads in the feedback area have some nice ideas. But a new heavy explosive weapon meant to give high killing power at close to mid range. Would be awesome to strengthen the Galleon right now. Sure it has hwatchas and carronades but neither are that scary if you keep them under control. As Frogger says, gat it out, done. Catch it in reload means even if it comes back up, it has to sit there trying to reload and so you can just gat it out again.

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2014, 11:06:45 am »
There's actually already a working solution to the the junker-blending problem, at least at close range. Ask Richard LeMoon about his Pineapple. At longer ranges, an artemis or two (I like three, actually) will keep lumberjacks at bay.

And since we are still on the subject of Pyramidions and I was previously mentioning the manner in which pyramidions counter everything just by changing the front guns, here's a list of working anti-junker pyras:

double carronade
Hades/carronade
carronade/artemis
mercury/artemis (you think this one wouldn't work because of trying to hit the junker hull with a mercury, but the artemis can keep a junker disabled with relative ease while the mercury trains its shots)
anyone tried dual or triple artemis? I feel like that would work.

And really, I would expect a double artemis pyramidion to be typically more effective against a triple-art junker. Reason is: it just seems so much harder to break the front guns on a pyra. It's got something to do with the point of the ship hanging over the hitboxes of the guns, I think. But you can reliably aim at the rear deck of a junker with burst artemis and break 4 guns and an engine with a couple of shots. Talk about dead in the water.

Now, I do actually expect a pineapple junker to at least be an even match against pure blending builds, but not so much against the Pyramidions listed above simply because placing pressure on both the balloon and some other component, you start to limit the junker's firepower by spreading the engineers to repairs rather than firing weapons. That's how you bring a junker down.

HOWEVER, I do have to add this caveat: I think trying to buff the junker to counter pyras is a mistake, and for that matter trying to nerf carronades to give junkers a fighting chance is also a mistake. Maybe I just say that because of my strange obsession with carronade spires, but I do actually believe that the ships in the game should show some kind of specialization, at least in the way they move and being proficient in mastering a ship's movement is just as key in counter builds as bring a particular ship in and of itself. The junker, for example, has impressive turning and if the pyramidion wasn't such a jack of all-trades as far as mobility goes, skilled junker pilots could take advantage of that to counter pyramidions. It's just the same as how mobulas can dependably do vertical dodges against charging pyramidions. This is why I say that the pyra really just needs a certain nerf to its turning and vertical movement (and I think a buff to its longitudinal speed wouldn't be unreasonable as well) rather than just nerfing everything on it.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2014, 03:30:56 pm »
And a pineapple is what pray tell?

Offline Nietzsche's Mustache

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2014, 04:09:47 pm »
triple carronade on one side, all greased rounds. The other side is usually dual hades, but it can be other things. I'll play around with gatling/banshee for the second side so we've got some sort of kill side and I can keep the carronade in the trifecta.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2014, 08:24:52 am »
Reduce the health of all balloons - Reduce the damage modifiers proportionately - Reduce the damage done by pilot tools proportionately - problem solved. Balloons still pop with 2 shots from the heavy carronade but can be rebuilt and repaired much quicker - Balloon Lock is no longer an issue but carronades are still effective at dropping ships out of arc - TaDa!



mobula op

Offline ShadedExalt

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Re: New Testing, Balance! (Saturday 22nd)
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2014, 09:46:42 am »
Reduce the health of all balloons - Reduce the damage modifiers proportionately - Reduce the damage done by pilot tools proportionately - problem solved. Balloons still pop with 2 shots from the heavy carronade but can be rebuilt and repaired much quicker - Balloon Lock is no longer an issue but carronades are still effective at dropping ships out of arc - TaDa!



mobula op


It's still an issues, just less of one.  I do like the idea though!