Author Topic: Balance problem - metamidion  (Read 30137 times)

Offline RedRoach

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2014, 02:29:06 pm »
Out of pure interest, what do (or did, since you appear to go waaayyy back) you use against metamidions? Another metamidion? A brawlerfish? Greased in the mortar? Hydrogen dodges?

Offline Dementio

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 02:49:29 pm »
I like to think that the Metamidion in competitive is only ever effective when its enemy pilots don't know what they are doing.

Yes, Metamidions are easy to learn ships.
No, Pyramidions are not really that "easy to maintain", because the main engineer is responsible for all engines and the armor/hull as well, you will never have engines if your hull gets damaged, unless you decide it's worth to move without pilot tools, even phoenix claw can destroy engines if nobody repairs them.
I would say "No" to making the Pyramidion's steering ability as bad or worse as the Mobula's or the Galleon's. Its turning abilities are already worse than any other not mentioned ship.


Anyway, the Metamidion in balance can be explained the following way:
Why is it so easy to kill with a Metamidion?
Because the Gatling and the Mortar do so much damage, they can kill even a Galleon with only 1 clip, if the Galleon was not being repaired.

How come a Metamidion gets kills when literally everything is supposed to beat it up?
Because guns that disable can miss. The reward of these guns is that they can disable their target indefinetely and this targeted component will never get the chance to be used again, gun or balloon, but if they miss, the risk is so high that all it takes is a Gatling and a Mortar to kill the ship of disable. Sometimes pilots whose crews are disabling quite well might get to comfortable and thus a single mistake can cost a ship.
Because out-turning a Pyramidion is entirely possible, but people forget how big gun arcs actually are. Out-cirlcling a Pyramidion is not that easy or even possible, because, who could have guessed, Phoenix Claw. However, the same goes for many other ships, some just need a second to get going, I mean the Galleon and the Mobula of course.

Because the game has more factors than a scenario of facing a Metamidion 1v1, head to head. Sometimes it sneaks into your side/behind and when you try to dodge upwards you might forget that while the Pyramidion may not be the fastest at vertical mobility, it is just fast enough to keep good enough gun arcs to shoot at the very bottom of your ship, which could be a spike of a Spire or a even a fin of a Goldfish, if the enemy pilot reacts slow enough. Sometimes its ally is there to support it, afterall, 1 gun that hits can change the entire engagement so it doesn't even have to be 2v1 the entire time, just softening the Metamidions opponent is good enough.

Because what is a Metamidion really good at? Keeping gun arcs with Phoenix claw in close range, while the altitude of the current engagement makes only slow changes.
Of course the Metamidion haa an easy time to kill something in close range, that is what that thing is good for! In every other scenario this ship is entirely useless! (Unless it isn't a Gat/Mortar front Pyramidion, but then it wouldn't be a Metamidion anymore.)
This also means that a rather large amount of factors has to be in the Metamidion's favor such as: Range, flawed enemy pilot's environmental awareness, imperfect disable ability of enemy gunners...


In conclusion:
That build relies on so many factors that nobody can really count on, which means that the Metamidion is in fact rather risky.
It is similar for the Goldfish: If you let it get as close to you as a Metamidion, you will very likely get some disable issues and even more so if the enemy fish decides to use one of its side guns.
Similar to long range: If you are getting beaten up in a long range engagement and you don't move out of range or behind cover, of course you will lose.

So, even if the steering ability of the Pyramidion were to be made worse, what is left for the ship to be good at? Suicide charges? Is that balance? Shouldn't then be the Mobula's vertical ability be nerfed too since it's better than any other ship and there is no hope for any ship to keep up with a Mobula especially when the Mobula decides to use hydrogen, which is a similar concept to almost no ship being able to stay out of arc of the Metamidion while in close range?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 02:56:39 pm by Dementio »

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2014, 04:53:05 pm »
Hey guys. So just popped into Guns after taking a 3 month break, due to frustration over the seemingly lack of balance in the game. I came back. Same problems, different day. The problems all revolve around the metamidion. It is honestly a blight on what could be a perfect game. A ship, with unmatched killing power, who can maneuver amazingly, and has a pretty decent hull health. It is sad, when I am see players with twice the skill of others, lose to choosing the wrong ship. How can this be fixed? Nerf the hell out of the maneuverability. The pyramidion should be like a bullet. When its on target, it is absolutely deadly, but when juked, does not have the ability to phoenix claw right to where it needed to be. I understand that the ship should be noobie friendly, but that doesn't mean allow new players to compensate for lack of skill. As someone who cared enough about the game to start and assist with getting this game into MLG as well as participate in its competitive scene, it is extremely frusturating to have to deal with a ship that is over powered and takes considerably less skill to be good at compared to every other ship. Sure, at the top level of play, the metamidion loses SOME of its power, but in random ladder, it is a game breaker. I'm not trying to be a pest, I'm only sharing why a player who regarded this game so highly, had to stop playing out of sheer frustration over one ship. Thanks for your time

Ummm...wth are you smoking?

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2014, 06:37:55 pm »
Carronade/Flamethrower seems to be a more popular build now because it's even easier to pull off.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2014, 07:29:16 pm »
frankly I would see carronade/flamer as more dangerous than gat/mortar, its pretty scary vs other ships like goldfish or junker. However carronade/flamer pyra is countered by metamidion itself.

Re: meta pyra, it is countered by junker and galleon, tough reactive ships with versatile guns.
Galleon has the amazing disabley guns (unless it's full flak, protip don't go full flak) that can screw up the metamidion's gat/mortar timing and usually win or at very least substantially prolong the fight, good tankiness (not as much as junker tho), and it's heavy enough that ramming is less effective.
Junker is even better, it has the slim easy to miss hull profile, insane armor, extra front gun to disable on the approach, superior (in every direction) maneuverability allows juking (often while maintaining side gun arcs), and a huge balloon to hide under if things go south.

Sure the metamidion is easier than those, but then again flamer is also easier than LJ and I don't see anyone complaining about it here.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 07:35:25 pm by Omniraptor »

Offline Battle Toads

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2014, 07:48:37 pm »
Carronade/Flamethrower seems to be a more popular build now because it's even easier to pull off.

I 100% agree with this, carro flamer is my main pyra build and I am sure most pyra pilots over level 30 use a similar build more focused on disables for when flying pyra

Metamidion is one of the easiest builds in the game because of its reliance on pure armor/hull DPS. In a head on engagement up close of course pure DPS will win in a game about killing things when no other factors are involved. However, this does not make the metamidion the best ship in the game, just an easy one

I have flown about 2/3 of my matches as pilot on a pyra, and the majority of those were disabler pyras like flamer + carro, so I know what a pyra does well and what it does poorly.

So if you are in a lobby and see a metamidion don't just assume you will lose because there are plenty of anti pyra counters including:
-Sniping (gats have a very limited range, and most maps in the game are viable for sniping)
-Disables (main engie needs to repair hull and engines, so take out their engines and now they are either dead in the water or armorless)
-Balloon Pops (pyra does have a hard balloon to hit, but a good lumberjack/carro gunner can really mess up a meta)
-Double gat mobula simply has more DPS than pyra, although you are weaker in armor if you are smart about positioning and attack from a pyra's blindside, then they will be dead before they can even turn to face you
-Good Piloting (I know its tough to say this is a counter to a build, but any skilled pilot can easily out maneuver a pyra with almost any ship in the game
-Practically every pilot tool in the game (just use hydro to dodge pyras, or tar to disable pyras behind you, kero can let you outrun them if your ship is fast enough

In conclusion metamidion may be very easy to fly, but it has way too many counters for it to be called the best or most OP ship in the game

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2014, 07:51:42 pm »
Yeah, one of metamidion's weaknesses is that gat/mortar have most of the time zero effect on enemy's flight envelope.

Offline obliviondoll

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2014, 08:37:06 pm »
A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe Phoenix Claw should nerfed? :)

Fixed that for you.

Also, was just coming here to check things out because I've missed GoIO lately.

Got dragged into Destiny for a while on my PS3, got bored and went back to Armored Core, XCOM and a couple of Dynasty Warriors games I picke dup cheap, then got Alien Isolation for PC. I have a tendency to jump from game to game a lot, and lately I've been more on a console gaming binge. Really need to get back to the game, and doesn't look like too much has changed to make the game seem unfamiliar.

So have they really not done anything about the Claw yet? I'm a little surprised to see that still being mentioned in an active conversation as something at least borderline OP. Not that I ever use it myself, but... I'm a bit crazy. And what I do... works for all the wrong reasons :P

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2014, 08:46:45 pm »
The metamidion is effective, but it isn't the most flexible ship. I'd even go so far as to say it is a little noob tubey, although it isn't a straight analogue to the noob tube as it works in competitive play and with other appropriate ships complementing it it can form a good foundation for a decent fleet. That said it provides the captain with really only one option most of the time: get in arc, stay in arc, target hull. Most of the time you don't want to ram in it because your gungineer wont thank you if the mortar loses arc as the hull breaks and fancy flying is just going to spray gattling shots everywhere.

This leaves it somewhat predictable and it can be countered by a good pilot. If you are smart you can get the enemy to waste gattling shots on you while you use cover or back off. A meta is very vulnerable if the gattling is having to reload or doesn't have enough in the clip to strip. The gat can take out components but if it does that it isn't breaking the hull and you now have a mortar as a balloon ornament.

Disabling the gat or mortar on a meta also leaves it vulnerable. If a carronade has redecorated a metamidions mortar shotgun pellet grey or a Hwacha has disabled the gattling then even a well flown metamidion is likely just a nicely positioned bullet magnet.

If I see a meta on the opposition team with a decent crew I know I have to be careful about when and how I end up in its front arcs, but I'm not at panic stations. If I see an all meta enemy then I just bring one of many counter builds (carro-flamer pyra or hwachafish being obvious ones), if the enemy is comparable to my crew and me in skill then I'm feeling pretty good about that match. It is a functional ship, it has a role, but it certainly isn't unstoppable.

The meta can seem OP though because if you are flying against a well balanced team with a meta it is the thing getting the kills. It isn't getting kills on its own though. A meta does well if its ally softens up targets for it by breaking engines or popping balloons (or just acting as a juicy target to get charged while the meta positions itself). The meta gets noticed because it felt like you were coping with the blenderfish and in swooped the meta to kill you. The truth may be you might have beaten the meta had you got the drop on it, but their ally left you vulnerable. The kill is the metas, but your problem was the team.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2014, 02:02:43 am »
Haven't followed competetive to much recently but from what I gathered during my last competetive games and now metamidion is in a decent spot.
The reasoing why I think metamidion is so common is its strength in a rather 2d environment. As soon as altitude gets into play I see metamidion get wrecked almost always.

Everything else already mentioned ...

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Balance problem - metamidion
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2014, 01:20:33 pm »
The metamidion isn't overpowered. It's just not hard countered like other ships.  Take away the small armored balloon on the pyra and give it a regular unprotected balloon.  Then it would be balanced. It'd be no harder to crew or fly and it would no longer be the "safe" ship that it is against blenders.


Of course then everyone would know just how silly op the heavy carronade is, but that's another story.