Author Topic: Only 3 rematches remaining...  (Read 8954 times)

Offline Chmielewski

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2014, 04:00:36 am »
This was the worst thing Muse ever did.

Supermassive Black Hole was worse. I still feel betrayed.
You have my salute and thanks, sir :D

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2014, 12:47:40 pm »
So Muse replied to my email and essentially told me that what players want isn't important in this decision and it's all about the numbers.  I urge anyone who disagrees with them to reach out and also email them since it's more likely to be read than posts on the forum.

Offline shaelyn

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2014, 01:38:49 pm »
honestly, I don't care who I'm playing against, it's the people I'm playing with that matter.  just as long as the match isn't stacked (as it so often appears to be).

but when the lobbies go into crew form, if I was in a match with ship scramble on, if I was with a large group (clan matches), the crew I want to stay with can get broken up.  it's...clumsy.  and I don't know how to fix it, but if they fix that, then I don't care so much about being lobbed into crew form, so long as it finds a new match quickly (as it sometimes doesn't with the larger crew forms).

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2014, 02:06:46 pm »
@Sparklerfish,
That's a bit unfair of a summation of our conversation. I apologize if explained it poorly. I'll try to do a better job here.


Why only three rematches?

Because rematches were happening in unfair matches and no I'm not talking just numbers, I'm talking about numerous games I and other team members experienced where the match ended, was rematched, and almost the entire losing side of players left, despite the scramble.  Just because the vote for rematch won doesn't mean that all of the players are going to rematch. Those who lose often don't vote.
So now we have a half filled lobby that removes people from queue in a rush way to attempt to fill the gaps in the lobby.
Does this happen in every lobby?  No, but it happens in enough that the queue suffers for it because once players are removed from queue to fill this half filled lobby, now you have a queue with even fewer players to make a good and balanced games.

When you start returning people from lobbies back into queue the system has more players to build better games faster.
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.

The reason 3 rematches was chosen this should give every ship a chance to swap while still putting people back into queue.

Our goal isn't to disenfranchise players, but to help the greatest number of them. Does the data matter to us?  Completely. Behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round.
This doesn't mean that we ignore feedback, but that what one player sees may not be what every or the average player sees.  We have to try and balance all the conflicting views we get and at the end of the day make the decision that we believe that will give the greatest amount of fun.

@Shaelyn,
You bring up a very good point. We'll check out a better way to flow this so big groups don't get split up or at least have an easier way to get back together.

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2014, 02:27:21 pm »
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.

I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..

Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?

I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..

Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?

Offline Trystan Hart

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2014, 02:57:03 pm »
Thanks for the explanation Keyvias. I can understand the logic of it, but I still think it's running into a crucial consideration: it feels like the game is forcing a compromise to make up for its own mechanical shortcomings in matchmaking.

I really don't mean to be rude, but the last time I went on with my clan, we had about 7 games in a row where we were returned to the crew form after each one, because we were a 3-4ship crew, the match making system was dropping us in (presumably the only available) noob lobbies, where we completely wiped the floor each time and they all left. I just stopped, because it was no fun and probably scaring off new players, and all my requests to swap ship slot were being ignored, so I couldn't manually put myself on the losing side  to get more of a challenge.

The trouble with that is that when you go to crew formation manually and invite from your friends list, it will put you all on the same team, and probably won't find a balanced team for you to fight against, because it won't shuffle up the ships from your crew form to even the teams. If you DON'T go to crew formation manually, chances are you're in a crew witha  few noobs, who will  leave and keep interrupting the search for a new match, or won't realise the crew is theirs and won't click play, so everyone else has to leave and start again.

Since then I've got into a bunch of really good lobbies. Ususally after a couple of games, peoples' friends join via the community pane and we'd swap ship slots where necessary to keep the match balanced. Then you get one really sweet match that makes you remember why you still play the game, and suddenly you're dumped back into the crew formation at the end of it, and have to start the whole process over again.

I'm sure matchmaking will get better, but at the moment, (whether or not it works well at peak play times) it feels like it's not working well, and this 3-match countdown just stops us from manually making good matches, and drops us out of good lobbies when no one wanted to leave.

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 03:46:35 pm »
I don't know what these numbers are based on but it seems like it is nearly impossible to create a high level match that's balanced without giving some time for players to filter in and out and invite their friends.  Yesterday for the FIRST TIME EVER I was in a balanced 4v4 with high-skill captains and crew.  It was challenging, fun, and nobody was getting stomped.  People weren't leaving and would have loved more rematches.

Can you guys please open your eyes and see that matchmaking and removing player control is not serving the needs of higher level players?  When we find lobbies we like, it is due to lots of manual adjusting, being invited, etc -- our last resources to contruct our own balanced lobbies.  Putting us back in the matchmaker will either 1. Drop us back into the lobby we were just in (which happens a lot), or 2. Set up another pub stomp in which the newer players leave after (or during!) their first match, in which case we wind up with the same circumstance you're trying to avoid, or 3. Leave us sitting in the crew formation for 15 minutes until we get bored and log off (or create a custom lobby, invite our friends, and remake basically the exact same lobby that we were forcibly booted from).

Dude.  Please listen to your community.  We want enjoyable matches just as much as everyone, and if your change is causing things to not be enjoyable, screw your effing statistics and LISTEN TO US.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 07:15:15 pm »
Dude.  Please listen to your community.  We want enjoyable matches just as much as everyone, and if your change is causing things to not be enjoyable, screw your effing statistics and LISTEN TO US.
See, the thing is, there's about oh, 4-5 outspoken people about this, the data from Muse often paint a vastly different picture for the average user than what you yourself may experience. They do listen, but can't just do anything/everything an extremely small vocal majority clamor about; like 90% (probably an exaggeration but you get the point) of the playing population don't even visit/know about the forums.

To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.

I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..

Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?

I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..

Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?


I don't really think Muse has to share any of this information like at all if they don't want to. You barely hear about any behind the scenes matchmaking numbers from any game that uses it.

Offline sparklerfish

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2014, 07:34:56 pm »
yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.

Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large?  Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?

Offline Imagine

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2014, 08:29:42 pm »
yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.

Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large?  Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2014, 08:41:50 pm »
yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.

Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large?  Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.

You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2014, 08:43:06 pm »
To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.

I'd like more info like this to come out on match maker..

Can you say what the numbers were like before the hotfix? How much did limiting lobbies to 3 rematches improve the over all numbers?

I think if we were given more info about whats going on people wouldn't feel as upset if they can see the improvements these changes have..

Was there any posts made on how MMR works or how match maker basically tries to do stuff?


I don't really think Muse has to share any of this information like at all if they don't want to. You barely hear about any behind the scenes matchmaking numbers from any game that uses it.

Did I say they have to? I believe I said, I'd like them to. (I guess in away... my feedback is to give us more feedback.. that seems weird)..

Also in the October 31st Fireside Chat Howard/Bubbles said toward the end (like the one hour mark?), he wants to make a post this week (I think he meant this week?) with more info on what all they are doing and how its effecting matchmaker.. How much numbers that will involve if any, I guess well see if he makes that post.

At any rate I am not trying to arguing with you about it or anything, I simple meant more info like the above would be nice so we actually can understand how its working and how these changes are improving the situation.

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2014, 10:45:22 pm »
Quote
If people want to continue to rematch and keep playing together, that means the matchmaker has done its job for them (or they sorted it out themselves).  The point of the matchmaker is to deliver people to a balanced match, is it not?  If people are in a match they like... DON'T TAKE THEM OUT!


Sparky, you have my spanner
And my salute

Like I've said on the 1.3.8 Hotfix 2 release notes, I don't overly mind the forced 3 match re-match in the opened queued lobbies (I'm not overly happy with it either but I can live with it). I do however want it completely removed from custom matches, even if the custom match is opened to the queue. If someone took the time to create a custom match then there is a reason for it and I don't think anyone really wants to re-set up their custom match ever 3 matches.

yes, perhaps 90% of the player base has no idea the forum exists, but uh so far I have found precious few people either on or off the forums who are in favor of limiting rematches.

Do you think that the people who post on the forums have views that aren't representative of the player base at large?  Should our opinions be discounted just because not everyone who plays the game posts?
No, but you're acting like the vocal minority represents EVERYONE playing, which is completely untrue.

You're acting like the vocal majority is a minority, which is completely untrue.

I do think what sparkler says is more the majority than the minority. 

To give an example: since this update our average queue is less than 30 seconds and gives an average MMR difference of 36, at under 50 the higher rated side has less than a 60% win rate. This means it's pretty close to a 50/50 chance for both sides.

The reason 3 rematches was chosen this should give every ship a chance to swap while still putting people back into queue.

Our goal isn't to disenfranchise players, but to help the greatest number of them. Does the data matter to us?  Completely. Behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round.
This doesn't mean that we ignore feedback, but that what one player sees may not be what every or the average player sees.  We have to try and balance all the conflicting views we get and at the end of the day make the decision that we believe that will give the greatest amount of fun.

OK, I understand that the numbers are be important. But I also think the community feed back is just as important. You state that behind each leave, quit, and unbalanced match are players that are not having a good round. So shall the players that are unhappy with the matches that the match making system puts them in just leave that lobby and go straight back to queue and try over and over again until they find one that is balanced??? Will this show which players are unhappy with the match making system and the lobbies they are put in better than just staying in the unbalanced lobby and pub stomping? (These are actual serious questions and not sarcasm. I want to know the best way to help fix this system). After the last hotfix 3 out of 10 of my matches have been reasonably balanced which is an improvement from the 1.3.8 where pretty much all 10 of the matches were unbalanced. However, there this still a lot of room to improve this.

Offline Trystan Hart

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2014, 10:49:49 pm »
Yeah, the thing about the vocal minority is that I was motivated to come on here and say it because I got sick of hearing it (and saying it) all the time in the lobbies themselves. I know that's hardly a representative survey, but I have not yet found anyone ingame who likes the 3-rematches thing, yet I have found tons of people who get annoyed that they;ve jsut been botted out of the first balanced lobby they've found all day.

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Only 3 rematches remaining...
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2014, 10:53:03 am »
@ Caprontos,

Definitely happy to share more info on the matchmaker (sorry for the delay, there's a bunch of support emails so it's spiting my attention horribly.)
So the average end of match score was a 90 mmr difference back in match list.  Not terrible, but not good, and with a lot more edge cases and as I said in a fireside we could very often tell you who was going to win each match.  Time for lobby start was roughly 14 minutes (This is creation to start), which was absolutely terrible.

Now matchmakers code has gone through quite a bit of changes and I am not the engineer who made it, but let me try to explain the flow.
Go to the play menu
             |
Matchmaker checks how many crew vs pilots there are in queue and makes a suggestion
             |
You click play
             |
The match system checks if there's any open lobbies that are novice or regular (depending on what you are) and where your mmr would fit best.
             |
If no matches need players the queue starts building a match with the other players in the queue
             |
At any point while it's getting 16 players together for a 2v2 or 24 for a 3v3 a player is needed to fill an empty already made slot they are taken from the queue and put in that game
             |
You are placed into a match that attempts to match mmr between teams and give each team two engineers and one gunner (unless they chose something different in crew form)
             |
Match starts and then ends
             |
Players vote on rematch or not (rematch always wins)
             |
Players leave rematches lobby and matchmaker tries to fill the gaps as quickly as possible.

That's a really rough overview of the system and there's a lot of little code logic that make it work that way, but if you have any other questions please let me know.

@ Numbers vs People
Both have merit. When I brought up the numbers it wasn't to ignore what was said here.  It's to show that we have conflicting information to deal with, we even on player feedback on the new system being more effective at it's job, so it's not just "you're fighting our handy dandy chart." A big part of our job is finding out which sacrifice is the best to make. We knew capping rematch would be a sacrifice, but we believe the good outweighs the bad.  The positive effect on balance and speed would be more important than the reduction of flexibility.

I'm not trying to say anyone's opinion is less meaningful or unimportant, but there is quite a bit of data we have.
This is why I like use cases like Shaelyn's.  If our system is hindering big group play, that's bad and something that should be fixed. This doesn't need evidence, argument, or debate.