Author Topic: Questions about Glicko2  (Read 7326 times)

Offline nhbearit

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Questions about Glicko2
« on: October 28, 2014, 07:58:19 pm »
So I'm hoping someone from MUSE can answer a few questions for me. I was about to post a rebuttal to something Keyvias posted when I realized that I simply don't have the necessary information to really dig into what I perceive to be the problem with his line of thinking. I apologize in advance if any of the questions seem rude or interrogatory. I'm working on a pretty limited set of information as well as quite a few assumptions. If you've answered any of these questions elsewhere, again I apologize, I must have missed it, and I would appreciate it if you'd repeat yourself here. Basically all of the information I currently have about Glicko2 comes from: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko2.pdf

1. Why Glicko2?

2. Glicko2 seems to have originally been created to rank 1 v 1 matches, how have you adapted it to fit GoIO?

3. Do you still use just one variable to rank players? (here I'm asking about the end variable, the Glicko score itself.)

4. Does anything, other than wins/losses, effect the Glicko score in your implementation?

5. Why do you feel using a ranking system is necessary?

6. When calculating the balance of a lobby (I'm assuming the ranking of individual ships as well) what process do you use? (simple addition of Glicko scores, or average, or whatever?)

7. What (if any) is your end goal for your system?

8. How does playing with AI effect the rating of a ship/team?

9. When coming up with your system, did you take inspiration from other games, and if so, which ones?

10. What advantages does a Glicko score give you over other methods?

11. How do you feel about the community regulating itself? (basically players deciding for themselves if a lobby is stacked.)

12. How does your system recognize teamwork? (Here I'm mostly concerned about how well certain players work together.)




Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 10:17:59 pm »
That last point is the one I really want to know...

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2014, 06:36:24 am »
If you really want to get your answers you should e-mail it to Muse, they don't always go through forum (because they're working).

I'm really looking forward to those answers.

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2014, 10:35:33 am »
If you really want to get your answers you should e-mail it to Muse, they don't always go through forum (because they're working).

I'm really looking forward to those answers.

Bearit lists some really great questions since this is the topic of the week it seems. I would definitely like Muse to post the response to these questions on the forum so everyone interested can be well informed. 

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 11:04:10 am »
Yeah email is your best bet, most of the questions would be answered by Jerry, but he doesn't do much forum stuff at all.

If you send in an email I'll make sure it gets forwarded to Jerry and then you can post the answers here.

Sound good?

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2014, 03:29:34 pm »
Just received what I'm hoping is only the first response:

Thanks for the email!  Really appreciate the questions!

Let me take a stab and answering some of your questions cursorily.  And if you need you can follow up with, Eric and Jerry, the true masters, with more questions in more depth. 

1.  From what we researched, it's a pretty good basis for a match system that a large number of successful multiplayer game employ.  However, just research on what others did was not sufficient.  We actually applied glicko2 ratings over all of our historical matches, and found that there was a high and statistically significant correlation between the ratings and the match results.  Therefore, we decided that glicko2 was worthy of adoption. 

2.  We look at ship and team strengths in addition to individual strength, to make sure that we mirror the team strengths of each side as much as possible. 

3.  For rank do you mean levels?  If so, the levels are not directly correlated with ratings.  I mean, there is obviously a difference between a lv 45 player vs a lv1, but leveling does not account for actual performance, but only for how long someone has played the game generally, so it's not always the best reference for balance. 

4.  Yes, but I really won't disclose the details.  The reason why we don't, and any game does not, disclose details is in part because then we introduce sample and response bias, and open the door for people to game the system. 

5.  By ranking system do you mean leveling?  Whether progression is necessary is a subjective question and answer.  Ultimately, if we think it is fun to do and that the players will enjoy it, then we'll do it.  With any progression system, it is to an extent cosmetic. 

6.  Generally we look at ship and team strengths and balances as well as individual strengths. 

7.  There are many.  Speed, scalability, compatibility with console and PvE, balance, sociability to name a few. 

8.  It does.  Right now AI is a bit of a handicap as you know. 

9.  Quite a few, but I actually think the hundreds of feedback from players through 6 months testing far outweigh that. 

10.  Well, if you're thinking levels or say achievements, it is a much better reflection of actual player performance.  Levels are not really a good reflection of performance.  Level, especially now, has a heavy time component.  Achievements is just really farming.  People game it (me included). 

11.  This is a sensitive question, because we are here to serve, and not to judge individuals.  But from what we've seen, objectively speaking, community regulating itself has been less than satisfactory.  Of course there are exemplary cases and our community is in my opinion the best in all games.  I really don't want to get into an anecdotal debate about some good cases of great matches vs some examples of stacking etc though.  I don't want to call anyone out, and I don't want to judge individual players etc.  If we're all honest with ourselves, I think the number of issues with the old system should be self apparent.  And I think if we are all honest with ourselves, we can also be objective with the issues that the new system fixed while acknowledging that it is not perfect. 

12. Great question, partly it's performance.  This is a bit implied perhaps, as teams and individuals who do well to affect the outcome of the match may be presumed to have better teamwork.  I guess what I'm saying is, this is a highly teamwork oriented game, if a team does well to win for example, then we'll reward and give more credit to that.  Another part is progression.  But here we're thinking of doing more as well.  Thinking about an idea where we reward people for staying in matches for example, and not bailing out. 

Let me just also say that I really appreciate you writing us.  And I absolutely didn't take it as rude.  If my answers are too brief in parts or need more clarity, please let us know.  Having this type of inquiry and reasonable discussion is great, as opposed to the forum, where people with different voices and valuable things to contribute are drawn out by a few voices who want to shout the loudest.  Amusingly, these few voices shout us down with just about everything from balance to game play to now the match system. 

Tangentially, I do want to publish more system related stats in a write up, but we want to collect data over at least a week or two.  So I'll try to write something up next week.  But so far based on stats, we know where some of the areas in the match making system where issues arise.  We also know where some of the areas that match making is doing well in.  We know how much more efficient it is over the old system, and we know how well we are doing balance wise overall compared to the old system.  In the forums sometimes I don't even want to bother with stats or making an argument.  I give a stat and got people telling me I just made it up lol.  I'll wade back in in a bit to see if people can at least have reasonable arguments. 

Thanks!  Howard

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2014, 06:15:44 pm »
I am going to assume that matchmaking is working where it is supposed to work, with new players, where performance with each other is more predictable. It seems completely clueless when it comes to the higher skill levels. I don't think gliko2 understands how Guns works with it's unique ship-based teamwork. You can't rate an individual on a ship. You have to rate the entire ship as a single entity. Removing bits of that entity (the players) and putting them on other ships forms a completely new entity that will likely perform in a completely different manner. It is difficult to predict how that new entity will perform.

Did your ship win because your crew formed a superior entity, or because one of the other ships contained players with conflicting playstyles? Or maybe just a bad loadout. Perhaps you are a 3 game pilot that absolutely wrecked the other team 5-0 because you had a level 45 engineer giving you exact instructions where to fly. After that, you may be terrible at everything.

I don't know. When I look at a ship of people I know, I can tell how well it will do based on how much they play together, not by how well they have done on my ship. I know where to put them on my ship to compliment their playstyle, not their skill. I know when switching pilots will introduce weaknesses or strengths to a team.

How often have you heard someone say how good they are with certain pilots, but not others?

It seems to me that it is too tricky for the current algorithms to handle. Does it even incorporate 'Previously/often play together' in the sorting? 'Good Teamwork' is not good enough.

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 07:10:09 pm »
So I just got a response on some revised questions. This first post will be what I asked:

I'm assuming that because you are trying to balance the lobbies, that you have some way of ranking players, or scoring, some way to say that "ya these two are about as good as these two on the other team." If any of the questions refer to a ranking, the system that decides how to balance a lobby is basically what I'm asking about. I'm working on quite a few assumptions so if anyone identifies a false assumption on my part, just let me know.

3. Do you still use just one variable to rank players? (here I'm asking about the end variable, the Glicko score itself. That little mmr thing you guys have been hinting at near the bottom right hand corner of my screen.)

5. Why do you feel using a ranking system is necessary? (Basically why bother balancing lobbies directly instead of creating random (or friend based) ones with the players in unbalanced lobbies rejoining the queue of their own volition, and balanced lobbies having players that tend to stick around.)

6. When calculating the balance of a lobby, what system do you use? (How you determine if a lobby's going to be balanced or not. Howard mentioned something about teams mirroring each other, if that's how you balance a lobby I'd appreciate it if you just went more in depth.)

7. What is your end goal for your system? (Do you plan on using it as part of some other system, or is it simply there to give a better player experience?)

12. Does your system recognize teamwork amongst certain players, like players from the same clan. Does it modify it's behavior based on the players involved, or is it focused more around individual players?

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Questions about Glicko2
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 07:11:44 pm »
And this second post is the answer I managed to get out of Jerry:

3: We use Glicko2 rating, which actually has a rating and a deviation for each player. And we don't really "rank" players, it's only a number to indicate a player's strength and help us balance the matches. (This is also why we are not showing the rating number to players)

5: This is not really a technical question so I'm no expert. But our past match data indicated that glicko rating was a good measure of match result, and I don't see why the system should not try to balance the matches when it can.

6: Basically just the rating of each player in each side. As I mentioned, we found the rating from both teams had a high correlation with match results, and therefore we are comfortable using it.

7: I believe Howard should have answered this to you? I don't think I can provide a better answer here.

12: Short answer is not yet. It does make sense that players who crew form together or belong to the same clan would perform better than individual players who have not played together before, but if they have been doing so in the past, it's also possible that they would already have a higher win rate, which would also reflect on their current rating.