Problems with matchmaking

[KitKatKitty]

Bubbles....I don't actually understand how hiding the levels gives players the perception of balance or actual balance...Your community is an amazing community and I would say very little of us base a balanced lobby on levels alone. You guys worked very hard to create this new leveling system so that it would more accurately display a players level. This was released just over a week ago and for the most part I think works well. For people that achievement hunted it reflects that in the new levels and for people that honestly have tons of experience it also reflects that. So, why after a week are you hiding the new system you worked so hard on and people really didn't have issues with? The people that are stating their concerns for a balanced lobby (even though we use numbers to express it) are not basing this solely on numbers. We have been in game and have experienced matches that are just completely unbalanced due to how it is played and ends. Or like TeddyBearMafia stated with 1 veteran and 3 newer players all it takes is 1 newer player that doesn't want to listen and than the veteran stops wanting to teach. And Keyvias already stated that the match making system will do this (putting a high level with low levels) because it creates "balance" (mathematically, yes it probably does). However game play wise and player wise this isn't actually balanced and can become frustrating.
Since you guys worked so very hard at the new leveling system and your player base has worked so very hard to earn their levels and because seeing the levels in match actually can help veterans teach new players, which is what this community is about, I do wish that you would put the levels back in match.

[Dev Bubbles]

@Sammy Oh oh I see what you're referring to now.  Wait, just to be clear, were you referring to muting in match?  Or the disabling of movement on tab screen.  If we're referring to muting in game, this was a feature request that we had quite a few requests for.  But the byproduct that we did not anticipate was the locking of movement on tab screen.  And this one we resolved right?  I think? 

On the present issue of level display.  This isn't about what people ask for or not.  This is not a feature request we're implementing.  It's a way to address the issue of confusion between a level, which is by in large cosmetic, and a system of balance.  Just want to make sure I'm on the same page. 

[Dev Bubbles]

@KitKatKitty, ah, I see where the disconnect in this argument is now.  Ok, let me go back a few steps.  The intent of hiding the display in lobby is not about us thinking the leveling system doesn't work.  The feedback we've been getting about the new level system has been pretty overwhelmingly positive.  So the intent was, this wasn't about the level system, but about the match system.  It's about people rushing to make balance judgements using level as cursory information and basis.  What I forgot to mention is, based on quite a few of the reported cases we investigated, this misperception caused people to bail out on matches, which put more burden on the match maker (in part because of the design that accommodates leavers for not rejoining the same match right away) to balance a match.  So, we thought it was a plausible solution to display people's levels in more places (agreeing wholeheartedly that people want to show off their levels), but take away level display in the one place that causes confusion. 

The risk is obviously like what you and Geo stated, that we somehow are backtracking on leveling.  I guess my point is just that, it's not the intent at all.  This tweak was aimed at the match system, not the leveling system.  If it doesn't work, we'll correct it and bring level display back.   

To Sammy's question, the fix and roll back is not difficult.  I would like to collect data for a week, especially given that we do have more new players come in this week.  And see if this was effective at all.  If not, I'll make it a point to make the adjustment.  Does that make sense? 

[Omniraptor]

I just want you guys to be consistent with hiding levels. Hide them everywhere except a special leaderboard, or show them everywhere. I can still see levels just by clicking on a name, or looking in match chat.

I still support hiding them, but only if you actually, you know, hide them.

[Dev Bubbles]

@Omni, yeah, you're right.  The measure was meant to deter that first impulse of bailing, while still trying to serve people's desire to show off.  It's a compromise.  The match system is a compromise as well between social features that people want and wait time and balance and player preferences.  Retaining a lot of the old system's social features, features that plagued the old system in the first place, is causing people grief in the new system.  It's been a tough process.  We'll keep working at it. 

[Richard LeMoon]

Display MMR numbers. No reason to keep them hidden if this is basically a full field test and feedback is key to making new changes for the better. Can't give good feedback if we have no clue about what is happening or why we are being tossed into matches with these random people that we clearly outmatch.

[Dev Bubbles]

@Richard, reasonable request.  But if we want to analyze data, which we are, displaying MMR numbers, like displaying levels, create sample and response bias and have to admit the impetus to game MMR rating numbers (that's just human nature, for some people anyway).  The test of balance, or how well the match maker is doing it's job, is to actually compare match results with prematch balance.  This is one consideration for example why MMR numbers are not shown.  But call for data is totally valid.  After this week, I'll find time to present these data again.  I'll do a blog post on it.  But give me a few days though, cuz I need time to collect and analyze this week's data.  Thanks a lot! 

[Dev Bubbles]

@Richard, another thing we're thinking about is a form of a league system, where you'll display your general ranking/level etc.  This can give people a general idea, but not so specific as to create misinterpretation or misconception about balance.  What do you think? 

[Omniraptor]

I'm very much against it. Keep MMR hidden please, even 'leagues' and whatnot can create harmful elitism, people being scared to play to 'preserve their rating', etc.

The only distinction I would be willing to make is for novices who have less than N matches or less than N hours in match. Those should be distinguished.

[Richard LeMoon]

I was going to suggest a more general ranking system next, so thought approved. Some games allow you to join a general queue or a more league specific queue.

[Searaphim]

Haven't had a single fun match since the match making system has been implemented. Just sayin...

[Schwalbe]

If I may... I'd like to say, that making any "leags" or something like that will make people go for some elite crap, and start thinking only about themselves. Honestly, guys. It's not what it's all about. I'm always being put with some guys, who don't know how to use microphone or chat, or keep having situations like today - galleon, 3 engies (5, 7 and my 12) + pilot (7), 2 of them on the upper board, and I'm completely alone on the lower deck, with 4 hwachas and engines which I need to repair constantly, because, well, why avoiding ambushes, or flying alone into the middle of the group of 3 enemy ships very close to each other? And of course - I keep telling them not to do so, BUT WHO CARES. I keep telling those guys that there is no need that both of them stay on upper deck, if even that can't help us to not being shot down, and I'm called selfish and rude, because "I want to play with my toys". Pardon fucking me, are you kidding me?

I can't even change ship, as I could do (and was doing) in 1.3.7, in cases I stumbled upon unreconstuctable idiots.

And honestly, you guys keep justifying yourselves by telling us that numbers are alright. Stop looking on cold numbers and join normal, matchmaker made match. This might look for you, in terms of maths, balanced, but the only result is keeping us frustrated and affraid, that there will surely come that one guy ignoring our teachings and orders, or even blame us for everything and calling us assholes, because we tell them when they are doing things wrong. It happened before, but somehow less frequently.

The other thing you achieved with you "well balanced" matches is fact that they last longer, and honestly... they are balanced. But ONLY paper. Seriously, today I had a match that ended with 12:9 or something like that. But you know what? It was so boring. It's not like I prefer slaughtering everything my spyglass see, but for Christ's sake, balance defined like that is deprived of any pleasure or thrill, leaving only frustration. And this was going like that for sooooo loooooong...

Oh, by the way. After mentioned match, in which crews of 3 ships abandoned the match, the new crews came, matchmaked I supposed. It was AFTER I joined the ship with my friends I couldn't join earlier because of the lack of free slot. So, as I understood, the matchmaker should take count on that we are quite good team and give us some worthy opponents...

...the coming match gave us like 9 kills, and 5 kills long kill streak. I mean, seriously?

And what's worse, you devs will STILL defend yourself with your numbers and statistics, and reports, still having your ears/eyes shoved up yer arse, pardon me, it annoys the hell out of me. It's not I want you guys to obey or whatever, but I want you to stop defensing yourself blindly and read what we try to tell you.

That's just wrong and sad.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Yeah so that's really the rationale, and of course you're welcome to disagree.  So there's what I would say.  We'll call this an experiment.  If we can definitely show that this helps balance, we can keep.  Otherwise, we can roll back.  If it doesn't work as we expected, then there's no point taking away from level display in all its glory.  Hope this is a satisfactory response. 

Thanks so much!  Howard

Appreciate the replies Howard. I don't think a roll back is really necessary. You guys worked hard on this, and while its been a bit of a mess, there is a valid reason for it. You need the performance improvement, and also this is a step in the right direction for console play. Great, lets compromise and admit that MM is needed for these reasons.

Now, question, if the lobby list was such a huge offender, why do we have a friend's lobby list now? Shouldn't this be causing a performance hit that is just as bad? If it isn't a big hit, then lets build on it. Do more with custom games. They need to be able to be filled from MM and from list join. I thought what we'd get with MM was a custom feature where we could just make a lobby and sit in it till MM filled it. Sure there might be a lot of extra lobbies but that was the case in the past anyways because you had to so you could play 3v3 or 4v4. Now it seems we can't so I wonder outside of competitive what point is there? This should be changed. It also compromises because it allows a lobby to exist and utilize the MM system. So those that don't want to stare at a queue but actually work on ships or talk with MM joiners can do that. Social aspect restored!

That is just one simple step in the right direction. Figuring out how we can take the best from both worlds and make it happen.



Look through all the feedback. There are some very solid ideas presented not only here but in dev app. Some of them implemented would make MM much more easier to swallow. Howard if you guys can do that, then you've got my vote and probably quite a few others.

[KitKatKitty]

@KitKatKitty, ah, I see where the disconnect in this argument is now.

Just so we are clear Bubbles...this (at least on my end) is not an argument. I am solely giving feedback to help make Guns the best game it can be. This game is probably as much of my life as it is yours and the very last thing I want to happen to it is that it dies because the community leaves due to a lack of communication.

I can understand that you do not want people bailing out of matches because of simply the levels of the players in the lobby and that you want people to give the match making system and unbiased try but I think I have valid points I made when it comes to the levels allowing Veterans to see who in the lobby may need assistance and training at the very least. I would think that newer players leaving mid match because they are getting slaughtered is just as negative if not more than an older player leaving the lobby before match to try to prevent said slaughter. Or when newer players leave because they don't want to listen to the suggestions of Veterans. Am I wrong? I've seen both happen quite often since the new system has came out. It's discouraging too, to be the Veteran player that has the new players leave mid match...and frankly the reason I say new players because I've hardly seen Veteran players display this behavior. Also....can I point out Guns has had a level system for 2 years...why is it a problem all of a sudden?

@Richard, another thing we're thinking about is a form of a league system, where you'll display your general ranking/level etc.  This can give people a general idea, but not so specific as to create misinterpretation or misconception about balance.  What do you think? 

This I guess could be a compromise even though I would just like to use and show the levels right next to peoples names in lobbies like before.

Haven't had a single fun match since the match making system has been implemented. Just sayin...

The matches I have had the most fun in since the patch have been the custom ones that my friends and I balanced ourselves.

I can't even change ship, as I could do (and was doing) in 1.3.7, in cases I stumbled upon unreconstuctable idiots.

And honestly, you guys keep justifying yourselves by telling us that numbers are alright. Stop looking on cold numbers and join normal, matchmaker made match. This might look for you, in terms of maths, balanced, but the only result is keeping us frustrated and affraid, that there will surely come that one guy ignoring our teachings and orders, or even blame us for everything and calling us assholes, because we tell them when they are doing things wrong. It happened before, but somehow less frequently.

I do have to agree with this. Numbers are not everything and I'm a numbers person so it's hard for me to say that. I perfectly understand HOW the match making system puts me on certain ships to balance the lobby however....I have to agree with Schwable here.

The other thing you achieved with you "well balanced" matches is fact that they last longer, and honestly... they are balanced. But ONLY paper. Seriously, today I had a match that ended with 12:9 or something like that. But you know what? It was so boring. It's not like I prefer slaughtering everything my spyglass see, but for Christ's sake, balance defined like that is deprived of any pleasure or thrill, leaving only frustration. And this was going like that for sooooo loooooong...

If they are not a complete slaughter...the matches have been "closer" and longer BUT that's usually because there are players that aren't listening or not doing their job. I was in a 3v3 where a level 5 pilot was wondering around the match, not using mic, not using chat and not listening, while the level 43 pilot (the ship I was on) and level 35 pilot could only engage in 2v3 fights and try to fly around and protect the one ship flying off randomly so it wouldn't get killed over and over again. Might I add 5 people left mid match, all being lower level players. I would much rather have a close match where the majority of players all working to their highest capacity to play their best game ever because they are playing against players that are their "level" instead of because 1 or 2 Veterans are running around doing everything or trying to teach in between doing everything...isn't that what the "teaching" status is for and the novice matches? What many of the Veterans have came to is just making custom matches and not using the match making system.

[Ruairi]

Let's be honest there are many problems with matchmaking, ranging from the simple such as the double gunner, to the more complex such as creating a balanced match.

In regards to the simple problem of the double gunner/pilot it is amazing how long this has gone unresolved. In the previous patch/hotfix for whatever reason the gunner and engineer icons have been merged together. Insinuating that there is an equal need for "gunners" as there is for engineers when in truth the gunner is a binary number... 1 or 0. (By the way can someone please explain to me why the A.I. gunner still exists?) Now in regards to the second pilot I don't even know how this is a thing...? Other's have suggested in the past that by blocking anyone that isn't in the captain position from using the pilot class this could be resolved. This is a step in the right direction, however I would add that the only positions available on a ship are the recommended load outs chosen by the captain of that particular ship. In addition to this I would also add that in lobby, a person cannot change to a second gunner without the first gunner acknowledging this change and being swapped to engineer as a result.

In regards to balance, I don't believe this can really be achieved as long as the "rematch" option is a feature. This is because it limits the player pool available, hence veterans are spread out over various matches often crushing less experienced players on "stacked" teams. I would also like to add there are numerous ways in which this community could be improved very easily. Such as creating an icon new players could display showing that they are willing to learn from Veterans willing to divulge information on the game. Team Fortress 2 allows players to receive a coach if they wish... But in a game that thrives on teamwork, there is little done to help new players develop so that they may achieve/see endgame... This could also explain why GoI player activity fluctuates so aggressively...

In all honesty I believe there is a large community of players invested in this game who want to see it prosper. However with the number of solutions and ideas that are posted that fail to see implementation or even acknowledgement, I'd wager the future of this game is surely threatened... Especially with Veteran players slowly being BURNT out :/