Author Topic: Room for Improvement  (Read 27281 times)

Offline Shinkurex

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 102
    • [MM]
    • 45 
    • 20
    • 43 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2014, 09:23:44 am »
Is the HC League too long, too short, or just right? Why do you feel this way?

The length of the league wasn't bad imho

Much of the league uses a best of 1 system. Would a best of 3 system have felt better, or was the best of 1 option a good way to protect your time and the audience's time?

This is dependent on what the organizers want... If they want to incorporate this league into MLG, then per the rules currently stated on their site, we will have to go to Bo3 or Bo5... if not, Bo1 was perfectly fine

The HC League (re?)introduced a separation of casting and administration, but failed (largely due to me) to separate administration and referees. Was the separation good? Would you have liked to see more separation between administration and referees?

Separation was good. Casters didn't have to worry about rules, and could put more effort into casting the match

Time limit rules came into play multiple times. Were these rules a good way to end the match, both as a player and as a viewer? Is there a different format that you feel might better protect the ability to bring any style to competition?

The timer served its purpose... I do not however like the fact that it could be used to get a kill and then run away until time ran out.... though I do not have a way to counteract this currently

Were the set start times a good or bad thing? Did you feel you were left waiting in full lobbies too long waiting for your match to start? Did you enjoy knowing exactly when your match would start? Did it allow you to schedule better and get friends to watch you? Would a rolling start time or a different format work better?

Love the set start times... let me schedule my day better

Did the lobby time limit provide an adequate arena for selecting your ship without opening the match to excessive ship swapping? Did you feel safe to take unusual builds, or would a different system make you feel safer in taking unusual builds?

This is something that irked me previously, but I'm at the point where excessive ship swapping is just silly.... switching ships at 1 second to match start is underhanded and cheap though

Were the pause time rules fair, and fairly enforced? Were you ever concerned that server problems or player disconnects would ruin a match for your team?

Of the matches that I watched, I didn't get the feeling that pause rules were enforced at all... or it was more along the lines that nobody really bothered to remember the pause rules

Were the substitution rules sufficiently flexible to allow you to make all needed substitutions? Did you ever feel the substitution rules were too lax, allowing a player or team to abuse them?

nope

Were there any rules you felt strongly for or against? Something you felt harmed the integrity of the match or League?

nope

Do you feel that the map pool provided sufficient variety, and that the maps each added something beneficial to the map pool? Was there a map that detracted from the quality of the League that you felt should have been removed?

nope
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 09:26:14 am by Shinkurex »

Offline Dementio

  • Member
  • Salutes: 135
    • [Rydr]
    • 43 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 10:50:54 am »
The only problem I experienced was this only:

Quote
Were the set start times a good or bad thing? Did you feel you were left waiting in full lobbies too long waiting for your match to start? Did you enjoy knowing exactly when your match would start? Did it allow you to schedule better and get friends to watch you? Would a rolling start time or a different format work better?

I'm ok with the matches starting right after the previous matches are over (again, similar to SCS rules), but I don't mind the current system as well, even though I think it has some flaws. First of all, we've seen many stomp matches ending after 10 minutes, that gives us 20 additional minutes to already existing 15 minutes of break, a timespan I feel is unnecessary, as it may gather up to 105 minutes of wasted time in total between 4 matches that could simply be filled with immediate start of the next match. I don't think that people not showing up for their matches would be an issue, most of the people are watching other Hephaestus matches before waiting for theirs anyway,and I don't know if that was ever a problem in the SCS, having this system, but it would surely save time for many people. One benefit is that it allows you to show up on a certain (even if unnecessary late) hour, and there's still enough time for teams to schedule a pre-hephaestus warm up.

My biggest issue is the very start of the event being so late for Europeans, causing alot of roster problems during the last matches of the day. I'd either implement non-strict match times, so the Saturday's events would end earlier than they currently end, or I would start the event an hour earlier itself, same as SCS(or both, both is good as well).

However good the idea of set start times is, I believe it is for some teams possible to start the match sooner during one of these breaks instead of waiting for the set start time. It would be as easy as asking the leader/-s of both teams wether they are ready to fight sooner or not, or the other way around and if not just start at the set time.
Optional would be asking the teams for their prefered times to set the set the set start times accordingly so every team has their "perfect" team together because everybody in that team could play at the "perfect" time, but that could prove to be too much effort or teams might even call sabotage if they were to fight outside their prefered times against a team that is fighting inside of their prefered times...


I believe some opinions regarding the substitution rules are targeting a specific TAW vs Holy match were one entire ship was played by Rydr. To this I want to say, it was TAW's own decision to fly hand in hand with a team that they have (according to my knowledge) never played with before. Instead of Rydr, TAW could have had an ally with the best crew and pilot in the game, the lack of practise wouldn't and shouldn't have changed the result too much.
The substitution rules were, in my opinion, sufficent and any team has to pay the price when flying with somebody outside the team/clan. However, I would suggest having at least the pilots/captains remain from the same team.


When a tournament lasts this long, then I would like to see some rules covering areas like a clan having internal trouble that affects their team or some time related issues when it's simply too late to play. When such issues are only temporary then the match could be rescheduled to sunday, some friday or any other day during the week or any day during the tournament were the match can be streamed or at least a ref is present and watching these two teams fight it out. I would not see any problem with this either unless some teams want to cheat themselves more practise time against a specific opponent.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 10:58:00 am by Dementio »

Offline Imagine

  • Member
  • Salutes: 59
    • [MM]
    • 19 
    • 33
    • 22 
    • View Profile
    • Twitch Stream
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 11:06:19 am »
One thing I'd like to say from a streaming standpoint since the game has brought up a few times here, while yes, 0-0 matches are not exactly the most riveting to watch, and can be a pain to cast when not a whole lot happens in 30 minutes, please don't make changes based just on that. We had only one of those matches in a span of two months, and quite frankly if we as casters are not able to carry an audience through 30 minutes of whatever, we're not doing a very good job.

I personally would have no problem with Dunes being pulled from pool play, but that's just my personal feelings on the map, not a cast/stream need.

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 160
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 11:40:24 am »
1.The HC is too long for the following reasons:
putting away every saturday for this extended period is a lot of work, people go on vacation etc. in the mean time. POssibly have 2 games for every clan every week, or smaller groups?
also the finals should not be 2 weeks at this rate.

2.best of 1 is fine in the group stages.

3. Casters should not be in charge of the organization. they cna play a part, but should not be in control.

4. Yes time limit is good, should be built into the game.

5.start times are fine

6.we had no trouble readying up, teams should have a clear idea of what to bring.

7. the pause rules are too confusing, and could be made simple as to the referee decides when and where.

8. substitution rules are perfect.

9. no, it seems fair all around so far.

10. dont remove maps, lot of players have a tendency to shout nerf or remove, before even trying to find a way for things to work.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 11:46:14 am »
Quote
1.Is the HC League too long, too short, or just right? Why do you feel this way?
2.Much of the league uses a best of 1 system. Would a best of 3 system have felt better, or was the best of 1 option a good way to protect your time and the audience's time?
3.The HC League (re?)introduced a separation of casting and administration, but failed (largely due to me) to separate administration and referees. Was the separation good? Would you have liked to see more separation between administration and referees?
4.Time limit rules came into play multiple times. Were these rules a good way to end the match, both as a player and as a viewer? Is there a different format that you feel might better protect the ability to bring any style to competition?
5.Were the set start times a good or bad thing? Did you feel you were left waiting in full lobbies too long waiting for your match to start? Did you enjoy knowing exactly when your match would start? Did it allow you to schedule better and get friends to watch you? Would a rolling start time or a different format work better?
6.Did the lobby time limit provide an adequate arena for selecting your ship without opening the match to excessive ship swapping? Did you feel safe to take unusual builds, or would a different system make you feel safer in taking unusual builds?
7.Were the pause time rules fair, and fairly enforced? Were you ever concerned that server problems or player disconnects would ruin a match for your team?
8.Were the substitution rules sufficiently flexible to allow you to make all needed substitutions? Did you ever feel the substitution rules were too lax, allowing a player or team to abuse them?
9.Were there any rules you felt strongly for or against? Something you felt harmed the integrity of the match or League?
10.Do you feel that the map pool provided sufficient variety, and that the maps each added something beneficial to the map pool? Was there a map that detracted from the quality of the League that you felt should have been removed?

1. I like the length, though I would really enjoy an extra by-week. Maybe between division play and playoffs? Otherwise, it feels solid, and lets teams with a rough start not feel like they have 0 chance of coming back and getting a solid playoff spot.

2. Bo1 works for this. Saving Bo3/5 for playoffs works as well. In a perfect world it would be all Bo3, but the time to do it just isn't worth it to me these days.

3. Everyone so far has been professional in their roles, and I see no need to put extra effort into something that is so far working just fine.

4. I've never been a fan of time limits that feel too short, thus forcing tactics from teams. 30 minutes has seemed to be a good threshold however. I wouldn't want any shorter, nor the Sunday's system of 15min +x for kills. I think the blowback from the one 0-0 match we've had so far in the entire league's life is overblown. It's not a big deal.

5. I love the system we have now. I have a set time to show up, and that lets me set a hard time to make my team show up. I don't have to show up early if I don't want to. I don't have to wait ages for my match because my match's time depends on when others end. A+. To those wanting to start an hour early, I'm against that. I don't know how late it is for you, but for people on the west coast in the US it's early for every Saturday.

6. Not sure how other teams do it, but we tend to decide out loadout long before we are getting into our match lobby on game day. Beyond the annoyance of some teams swapping ships all the time to play "mind games" I've had no issue.

7. I have no issues with the pause rules, though their enforcement could use work. I won't call out any teams, but I do remember a match with a bad pause being called, and I felt it gave the team an advantage. I get why they exist, and they seem fair, as long as everyone is subject to the same enforcement. DC's happen, and if you aren't prepared for them as a team/clan, that's on you. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

8. I haven't had any issues with them, nor do they seem abused.

9. Not so far.

10. No, and I'm always up to say Labyrinth should be a part of the pool, though it doesn't exactly work with the system for ranking partly based on kill/death. (ie, you can die and kill way more than 5 ships in a game of laby.) I really think people hate Dunes just to hate on it. I hate Duel at dawn, but we've played it more then any map so far and I can't complain. Pick a strat, use it. 

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 01:18:32 pm »
A whole lot of good feedback in here so far. Thanks a ton everyone.

Specifically in regards to the TAW-Rydr alliance, we were aware when polishing the rules that such a situation could occur. It was divisive because while none of us particularly liked the idea of a team doing so, we also wanted to ensure teams had every opportunity for flexibility in part due to the length of the event. This was one of several points we agreed to revisit at the end of the season to see how the rules held up. To clarify, it was perfectly legal at the time. Anything we discuss here is purely directed towards season 2.

Along with that, I have a couple of directed questions to add regarding a few points. Note that these are for ideas being formulated by myself, and have not yet been discussed with other admins. So no plans as of yet, just probing the population base.



11. Would you be intrigued by a restructuring of the regular season to allow more fluid participation, or would you prefer a second season to maintain a more strict adherence to current structuring?

12. Would you be interested in playing more than one match per day (Bo1) even if your matches were not scheduled consecutively?

13. Would you be interested in taking an axe to the pause rules and removing official pauses?

Offline Llamas Unite

  • Member
  • Salutes: 10
    • [Rydr]
    • 32 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 01:55:08 pm »
11. I've had many discussion about ways to allow for more fluid participation without unfairly penalising teams, with no real luck or ideas. If however something like that is possible, then I would fully support it. Simply because the imposition of putting time aside nearly every Saturday for upwards of 2 months seems almost excessive

12. Yes, I'd be open to the idea of multiple matches on the same day, as long as there's some flexibility to allow for subs between matches

13. Whilst there have been some issues with the pause rule this tournament, I also feel they're necessary. Part of the joys of playing an online game, and GoIO in particular is the reality of bugs and dc's. Without a pause system, then short of a gentleman's agreement, there's nothing to stop a team being unfairly penalised by forces outside of their control. I think the current pause system as it is written in the rules is the best way to ensure a fair game.

And in regards to the sub rules, I think as I said before, a limit on the number of non-clan member subs, or perhaps limiting the number of subs from a single clan is the best way to do it. Allowing only a certain number of changes between matches is also possible, but when a clan is simply rotating between its members that's not an issue :/ Looking at the feedback and from what I've heard, outside of the TAW/Rydr - HRA match the system worked exactly as intended.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:04:46 pm by Llamas Unite »

Offline Dimometer

  • Member
  • Salutes: 3
    • [MM]
    • 22 
    • 44
    • 13 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 02:51:16 pm »
1.Is the HC League too long, too short, or just right? Why do you feel this way?
I like the length, It feels like each match really matters.   

2.Much of the league uses a best of 1 system. Would a best of 3 system have felt better, or was the best of 1 option a good way to protect your time and the audience's time?
I am of the opinion that best of three is better in theory, it prevents flukes and allows the cream to rise to the top, however best of one is much more practical.

3.The HC League (re?)introduced a separation of casting and administration, but failed (largely due to me) to separate administration and referees. Was the separation good? Would you have liked to see more separation between administration and referees?
I have had no issues.

4.Time limit rules came into play multiple times. Were these rules a good way to end the match, both as a player and as a viewer? Is there a different format that you feel might better protect the ability to bring any style to competition?
While time limits are not preferable, they are absolutely necessary.

5.Were the set start times a good or bad thing? Did you feel you were left waiting in full lobbies too long waiting for your match to start? Did you enjoy knowing exactly when your match would start? Did it allow you to schedule better and get friends to watch you? Would a rolling start time or a different format work better?
My clan had organised before the match, so i am not sure that it really affected us that much.

6.Did the lobby time limit provide an adequate arena for selecting your ship without opening the match to excessive ship swapping? Did you feel safe to take unusual builds, or would a different system make you feel safer in taking unusual builds?
Time to swap prevents teams from being completely hard countered, so that should keep the game competitive.

7.Were the pause time rules fair, and fairly enforced? Were you ever concerned that server problems or player disconnects would ruin a match for your team?
The rules were fair enough and clear, however i was in a match where the other team asked to pause, so we did, it seemed to take the referee a little to long to declare a pause in this case.

8.Were the substitution rules sufficiently flexible to allow you to make all needed substitutions? Did you ever feel the substitution rules were too lax, allowing a player or team to abuse them?
I was happy with the rules as they are.

9.Were there any rules you felt strongly for or against? Something you felt harmed the integrity of the match or League?
nope.

10.Do you feel that the map pool provided sufficient variety, and that the maps each added something beneficial to the map pool? Was there a map that detracted from the quality of the League that you felt should have been removed?
I dont think any of the maps should be removed, there might be a case to add other game types, but i am generally happy.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 03:12:59 pm »
Quote
11. Would you be intrigued by a restructuring of the regular season to allow more fluid participation, or would you prefer a second season to maintain a more strict adherence to current structuring?

12. Would you be interested in playing more than one match per day (Bo1) even if your matches were not scheduled consecutively?

13. Would you be interested in taking an axe to the pause rules and removing official pauses?

11. Beyond additional by-weeks, i'd rather keep it strict. I work for a living, and outside of weekends, I have enough stress going on that I wouldn't want to consider serious matches outside of the weekend. I'm all for new teams showing up, but we have this structure for a reason.

12. No. This goes back to why I much like the current system in terms of matches having set times. If we had more than one, we'd be sitting in limbo until our other matches started. While people might say this takes a lot of time out of their Saturday, that is by choice, because the match only takes ~ 1 hour including setup time for the team itself.

13. I'll be honest when I say at first I thought the pause rules to be a joke. Having seen them used however, I am glad they were there. I'm all for being kind to my fellow players, but they keep things moving in a fair manner.

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 03:26:20 pm »
Quote
11. Would you be intrigued by a restructuring of the regular season to allow more fluid participation, or would you prefer a second season to maintain a more strict adherence to current structuring?

11. Beyond additional by-weeks, i'd rather keep it strict. I work for a living, and outside of weekends, I have enough stress going on that I wouldn't want to consider serious matches outside of the weekend. I'm all for new teams showing up, but we have this structure for a reason.
Dangit. I was doing so well writing my questions clearly. Oh well.

This goes towards restructuring the regular season and divisions set-up for flexibility. I have a really cool idea I want to look more into and bring up soon, but it would pretty much get rid of most of the overall structuring the current rules use. However, the games would still play at set times on Saturday. The question is directed towards whether participants are developing an attachment to the current system or if they are open to alterations. Really this is probably best asked by writing up and releasing my idea, but I want to get feedback from the other admins first and discuss the implications of MLG before we do too much more than look for feedback.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 144
    • [MM]
    • 31 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 03:42:58 pm »
Ah. In that regard, while I have no issues with hearing ideas, I'm a believer of not fixing what isn't broken.

Offline Brick Hardcastle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [TBB]
    • 10 
    • 33
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2014, 12:31:20 pm »
For the most part, this league was exactly what I wanted. The basic structure is simple, straightforward and fair. The only issue I had was that there was a point during our match with Overwatch where it wasn't clear whether a pause had been called or not, and I was wasting precious seconds typing to the organizers for a verdict when there was action going on. I'm not sure how to solve this issue, other than refs joining a party/mumble/teamspeak with the teams to vocally inform them of a pause so they won't miss it in the corner of the screen or Muse creating that long-awaited "competitive mode" where the game auto-pauses for dcs and such.

I think, all in all, 11 weeks is a bit too long. It is very difficult to know with complete certainty whether a team member will be able to show up every saturday for nearly three months, especially if you also want them to be there for most scrims/practices so the team can practice together and stay in good form. When core members get stolen away by unexpected real life problems/obligations it really makes things a lot more stressful for those organizing everything. Somewhere between 5 to 8 weeks is the sweet spot for GOIO leagues, I think. Long enough to give things a sense of grandeur and provide for a good variety of match-ups, but not so long teams are getting too stretched thin or fatigued towards the end. If this means that teams might have to play more than one match some weeks, I think that would still be preferable. Can't speak for everyone, but I'd rather have my core team together for multiple matches in a night and focus on winning than have to worry about where they are going to be in two month's time.

Offline Grayknight

  • Member
  • Salutes: 5
    • [GwTh]
    • 29 
    • 25
    • 19 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2014, 12:49:33 pm »
From a non-leader's/organizer's standpoint, this has been a well run and officiated league. My only suggestion is that more bye-weeks be added. If that involves extending out to 12 weeks and only having 4 matches a week with smaller groups (<sarcasm> I'm really good at math and did all the math involving matches/week and group sizes </sarcasm>) might be an idea. If there were 8 matches total per team over 12 weeks, that might help organization on a team level, and take a bit of the burden off of the player and clan leader. It would also allow for the core group of players on each squad to not feel overwhelmed by two months of straight Saturdays (as fun and enjoyable as this league has been). As Brick said, we're one of the teams suffering from fatigue (we're small, 12 players right now, as well as a few long term LOAs right now), and I feel like we're not alone. I love the league and all aspects of it (Best of One, casting, organization - from a player's perspective, the community), but the commitment is getting a bit taxing as the weeks progress (my wife may or may not poison me on any given Saturday at this point :P ).

EDIT: As I re-read this, I realized that 12 weeks may be painfully long for casters, organizers, and referees. Possibly a shorter season might be a better option? Something should be done to augment the schedule a bit. Other than that, no complaints!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 12:51:22 pm by Grayknight »

Offline Velvet

  • Member
  • Salutes: 45
    • [Gent]
    • 19 
    • 22
    • 41 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 09:42:47 am »
though dialogue stopped a while ago, I'll throw it out that it'd be nice to have a shorter season or a gap in the middle so there would be some chances for the occasional non-standard event on the Saturday slot like Baptism by Spire.

Offline Queso

  • Muse Games
  • Salutes: 126
    • [Muse]
    • 13
    • 25 
    • View Profile
Re: Room for Improvement
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2014, 10:04:40 am »
I'd agree there. It does kind of push out other events given it's length.