Gunner Improvements 2.0

[awkm]

A huge update has been just pushed with a bunch of new functionality, features, and data changes.

Here's quick rundown of why new ammo is being tested.  Buffing a gun on top of damage modifiers given by ammo can produce the highest DPS potential in the game.  That said, many crews run all Engineers buffing their own guns.  This puts Gunners in an underutilized position.  Without introducing a slew of new mechanics or breaking paradigms we already have, the best way to improve the situation is to take advantage of the 3 ammo slots that only Gunners have by introducing new, very powerful, but very situational ammo.  Hopefully, this will encourage crews to use Gunners and take advantage of the various ammo types they can carry.  And to bring it back full circle, buffing gun functionality has been changed from increasing damage output and instead to reduce reload time.  This means that buffing a gun for a Gunner reinforces the idea of changing ammo by making the Gunner better at their job.  Buffgineers should still be a valid build and despite all these changes, a Buffgineer buffing their own gun with only 1 ammo type can still benefit by the implicity DPS improvement from reloading faster.  Hopefully this is all in the right step.

Disclaimer: These are only proposed changes.  Many skills still need a lot of work in terms of balance but the numbers should indicate the desired role for each. 

Test with a grain of salt and try to give your objective, level-headed, and descriptive feedback.  Simply saying that you like or do not like something is not enough detail.  Please describe why and how you like or dislike the proposed changes and how they will influence your play style, for better or for worse.

There are many changes so take your time and play around with the changes.

Buff Tool:
- Buff to guns reduces reload time by 25% (from increase in dmg)

And a link to a Google Spreadsheet of all the Ammo changes.  Cells that have a black arrow in the top-right corner denotes a change from Production.  Hover over these cells to look at a description of what the values are on production.

https://docs.google.com/a/musegames.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As7KK0xlixIbdENCVFEzZ09tUjktaFliLWxKekpDREE#gid=6

(You can also comment directly on each cell in the spreadsheet)

Let me know what your general thoughts are and what things need the most attention.  Again, there are a lot of potential changes here so don't take everything too seriously.  I'm not putting these into the game any time soon.

[Byron Cavendish]

What really stood out to me was the armored clip. It looks like an intelligent way to make the heavy gun more viable against well aimed artemis threats, especially on the goldfish. My only concern is that the negatives look a bit too harsh to utilize this ammo. The arcs in particular, as I would want to dufecta on a goldfish, and all the heavy weapons have limited arcs as it is. If I can't dufecta, I just would rather not use the ammo, making it irrelevant.

[awkm]

RE: Dualfecta with Armored Clip

Good point.  Noted.

[Milevan Faent]

I must say, this latest Ammo Pass makes me happy. These are EASILY the best incarnation of most of the ammo types ever. I genuinely had a moment where I paused and said "wtf do I ask them to take on my squid?" As I normally bring 3 Engies on my Squid, before it was never a question, Lesmok every time. Now, I'm looking at this and going "Heatsink? Dense Slugs (it's back to Lugs again?)? Injection? Greased?" It's now impossible to just pick 1 Ammo and say "everyone bring it". I genuinely feel like I WANT a gunner for the first time in forever! That's an incredible feeling! I'll probably try and do an extensive test and give further feedback later.

EDIT: Something that REALLY needs to be looked into is NORMALIZING the text. Right now, I can see at LEAST 2 different versions of text for what I assume is the same effect: "Rotation Arcs" on Injection and Greased, and "Total Gun Arcs" on Armored. If these are not the same thing, it should be made clearer, in which case they need to change anyway. If it is the same thing, then it should use the same terminology across the ammo. Right now, it's just confusing for newer players. As an experienced GoIO player, I can logic it out at least, but I'm sure a newbie would be scratching their head.

EDIT2: Also, did you revert the guns back to production? Because the Banshee no longer has it's awesome Explosive/Fire damage. Really hoping that stays, because I was a big fan of that idea.

[awkm]

RE: Slugs or Lugs?

It's Slugs.  Fixed that.

RE: Gunner Want

That makes me happy.

[Queso]

As a note on Armored Clip, it will be at normal health during reloads, and it will heal the gun for new max - old max (or 100% base health with these numbers) on every reload.

[Sammy B. T.]

The gun buff thing conceptually seems awkward. Outside of use on hwachas, I feel like the reload time would be barely useful and actually detrimental as one of the main benefits of an gungineer is the repair during reload. This feels less like a balance and more like a nerf. Unless the plan is to do away with buffing as a legitimate offensive strategy, this seems like a poor idea. Can't we just try to first make gunners better with these new awesome ammo designs and then see if engineers need a nerf?

[Milevan Faent]

The gun buff thing conceptually seems awkward. Outside of use on hwachas, I feel like the reload time would be barely useful and actually detrimental as one of the main benefits of an gungineer is the repair during reload. This feels less like a balance and more like a nerf. Unless the plan is to do away with buffing as a legitimate offensive strategy, this seems like a poor idea. Can't we just try to first make gunners better with these new awesome ammo designs and then see if engineers need a nerf?

You clearly haven't seen the full potential of this change. Gungineers will have to adapt to a different playstyle than they've been using. I fully expect I know exactly how that will turn out with the new tools they're getting.

[Milevan Faent]

So, just to confirm: -20% chance of fire ignition on Greased = no chance to put fires on things with Flamer and Banshee? Or is it meant to be like it was in the previous version, where it made it less likely for the gun it was on to catch fire (or at least appeared to)?

[Saull]

Excited to test these. Especially greased and heat sink now that they alter arcs. Greasy Hades/Flak squid is like a dream come true

[Crafeksterty]

Ok So here is my feedback and first impressions. No actual match Testing has been Done

The New Ammo + Buff Hammer

These new Ammo types are pretty refreshing and really want me to take a gunner on every ship.
Many of these ammo types are very offencive based, making for a quick killing whenever we use the ammo.

This is good actualy. Ive noticed this for both short and long range.

Buff Hammer
This definetly makes gunengineers less wanted to gun a gun more than a gunner guns it. But i cant help feeling that the offencive is a bit too strong with this. Not like there will be MORE gunengineers, but rather it will be hard to fight back versus quick reloading guns with quick reloading guns. Either some guns need their reload speed prolonged, or buff hammer goes down to 15% extra reload speed or something.

A hwacha with Proximity and quick reload buff seems like it will be very difficult to fight versus.
Or a Twin Carronade.


Proximity
Still flawed. It is much more balanced than before. But the DPClip of guns is still hard hitting. I say Turn down 80% more clip to 60%.
Very cool ammo that makes lumberjacks and hades forgive near misses along with hwacha being an actual Areal of Denial.

The mines however still hit your own ship. No srsly the mines are a problem with proximity im not sure how the stats can change to not blow up in your face.


Armored Clip
I love Armored clip, its a very cool ammo type for gunners to protect their guns with.
And its pretty balanced. I really do think this can allready be released.


Injection
Very cool, pretty balanced and may bring squids back into action.
For guns like the Hades suddenly turning into close range guns. One has to think first, is it a gunner firing it? Or an engineer? If an engineer, then his secondary is default.
But i feel an engineer with the buff hammer would still be better because of the reload suddenly not being so punishing.

It is still in a weird place for those types of guns. I dont know if a gattling or a hades as an example is better in this case.


Lesmok
Yett again, pretty balanced. Ide choose this over proximity when it comes to guns like Lumberjack or Hades.


Dense Slugs / Dragon Ash
These are simply unique

For some guns it is better to take the other, while some other guns have a choice with the balanced Explosive damage on Explosive weapons.
Dense Slugs can be a very good Mercury or Artemis Ammo type.
While Dragon ash a Hades or Light Flak Ammo type.

See why i think they work?


Greased
Very cool, and actually pretty balanced. The nerfs like -10% damage from production or -20% effective range is actually a good nerf that forces a will for other ammo types. While things like +25 more arc gives greased the more play full ammo type for closer range builds. -25% chance of fire is a weird one. But balanced.


Heatsink
So heatsink all in all does not seem like a very good ammo type at first.
But what its got going for it is the 25+ Arc. With Greased, you sacrifice damage and range. While heatsink you sacrifice 25% max health.
This is a very good balance. But i cant help fearing my own Spire build...
I managed to get the 2 side hades to aim forward with a heavy flak. Now, add in a mercury and you got a ship that kills real quick.
There have also been a few scary Goldfish builds, but the ammo is required and makes the goldfish builds balanced.
Heatsink, very balanced. Maybe not in ALL directions cause it sacrifices health. So it can easily be disabled.


Charged
Nothing special, but an upgrade from the last charged. Makes explosive weapons very damaging. Ide chose this over Greased or Dense Slugs when it comes to raw Explosive firepower.
Heavy flak charged has enough time and damage to kill a galleon i believe more so than a lochnagar would.


Lochnagar
You didnt do anything with lochnagar i understand, but with these changes, i think you should just remove the damage done on the gun.


Heavy Clip
With the changes on the other ammo, you should just take away with the nerfs. and let it be an ammo type with pure no Recoil




And Thats that
I really love these new ammo changes. It changed up alot on my builds. Im just a bit afraid of how offencive based it really is.
Mostly because of the buff hammer.

But here is another suggestion.

These ammo types start to get alot of info. Is it possible to put them in structure?
Like.

Greased Rounds
+80% Rate of Fire
+75% Clip Size
+25 Rotation Arcs
+25% Rotation Speed
-20% Projectile Speed
-30% Dmg
-25% Fire ignition chance
-20% Effective Range

Instead of the typografi being a bit jumbled.

[Wundsalz]

The gun buff thing conceptually seems awkward. Outside of use on hwachas, I feel like the reload time would be barely useful and actually detrimental as one of the main benefits of an gungineer is the repair during reload. This feels less like a balance and more like a nerf. Unless the plan is to do away with buffing as a legitimate offensive strategy, this seems like a poor idea. Can't we just try to first make gunners better with these new awesome ammo designs and then see if engineers need a nerf?

I doubt this change will remove "buffing as a legitimate offensive strategy". In my opinion it rather seems to be a shift away from optimizing a weapons damage per clip to optimizing a weapons continous dps including reload times.
Though I haven't tested the change yet and I hence can't say anything about the numbers, I disagree with the statement reducing the reloadtime "would be barely useful" concept wise. Just look at the extreme that's be possible here (100% reloadtime reduction) - a continously shooting hades, gatling fire without reload time, instant mine fields? In case the reload-time buff doesn't proof to be useful enough with the current 25% I'm sure it can be made useful by twaeking the numbers.

[Mezhu]

Buffkit
Buffing guns is a time-consuming task that requires a buffkit to be constantly on top of a single gun, buffing it between reloads. With the damage output of a buffed gun reduced, and the reload time reduced as well, buffkit's mechanic is altered but not for the better. Supposedly with a gunner manning what used to be manned by the 3rd engineer, the 2nd engineer now would now have to maintain the buff on his own gun and the gunner's one as well which is pretty much impossible (especially considering that the reload window is much smaller now).
Rotations are also going to be much weirder now- e.g. you don't wait on the gunner's gatling as the mortar gungineer to buff it just before it starts shooting. Instead, you have to be there once the clip finishes so that the reload can be sped up, but that removes you from your position near the mortar. Only exception is the goldfish which is practically a 1-gun ship.
For the above reasons, I'd still prefer a 3rd engineer over a gunner in all cases I can think of atm.

If there needs to be a change in buffkit's effect on guns, the duration of the buff should be prolonged and its' effect weakened (no matter if it's reload time reduction, damage increase or anything). That way, having 2 offensive buffkits would be redundant and a single skilled buffer could maintain buff on more than his own gun, making a gunner optimal over a 3rd engineer.
As it is, the buffkit fails to achieve that.


Will test the ammo types soon.

[Imagine]

Birth of the buffunners?

[Mezhu]

Frost and Mezhu's thoughts on the ammo changes

Heavy ClipThe change in rotation speed can be counter efficient in some situations and beneficial in others. Clip is sometimes overshadowed by Dragon Ash.

IncendiaryLooks pretty solid. Sacrifice in direct damage for a chance to set fires, practically transforming the damage types into fire.

LesmokDamage is a tad too low. We'd suggest either losing the damage reduction or the rate of fire reduction (at longer ranges you almost always have to take a second to watch your shots and adjust them, so probably keeping only the damage reduction should be ideal).

HeatsinkWe like the arc increase as a mechanic. It creates very interesting new builds and provides a much needed variety. Why is this on heatsink, though? Heatsink is already a very good, balanced ammo type that finds use from both gunners and engineers on a multitude of guns. Besides that, the health adjustment and repair cooldown adjustment feel odd and out of place. Health adjustment makes the ammo very risky to use on heavy guns (which often found use of it) and overall doesn't make much sense (light guns only need 1 carronade or artemis shot, and heavy guns still need 2 of those so practically the change makes guns more vulnerable to gatling and random sources of damage). Also messing with repair cooldowns is a dangerous game (you'd theoretically gain the most by malleting the gun, but a mallet on a gun with 75% max hp is already over-repairing it so has no synergy with itself).
We'd like to see those mechanics discussed and possibly implemented on another ammo type. As for heatsink itself, maybe an increase to fire stacks extinguish would be good.

ChargedWhy the lowered range? We already have greased as our close-range high dps ammo type. Charged fails to find a role both in the current version and as proposed here, in our opinion, especially with the twin ammo types. Potential candidate for the bonus arc effect?

GreasedCompared to live, damage per second seems slightly higher and total damage per clip much higher. Not so bad though, if you put the lack of bonus buff damage into the equation and the fact it's only optimal at close range. The bonus arc allows for easier close-range multifectas but might be making the ammo type a little bit too good and thus a no-choice.

TwinWe've already discussed those in depth. Still not balanced in the slightest, not close to production at all. Some guns benefit just enough from them (dragon ash on banshee, carronade), while others become completely imbalanced (dragon ash on hades, lumberjack, gatling, dense slugs on gatling etc). Only suggestion is to normalize the raw damage numbers and make the side-effects attractive enough.

ArmoredGood idea but there are flaws. The bonus cooldown will prove extremely punishing- one should load the ammo type to protect a gun from damage, but unless the pilot puts it out of enemy arcs the gun will steal certainly break within the 13 second mallet repair cooldown. The minus rotation is also very detrimental- if the clip works as intended the gun is going to act as a damage shield, absorbing lots of hits, thus losing a lot of health. This, in combination with the reduced rotation, will be making it impossible to aim and use at all.

InjectionVery niche use as a close range clip for guns with arming time. Conflicts with lochnagar for that role, and guns that have arming time are most of the time manned by gunners so it doesn't serve its' role of promoting the class. Would still rather have it be a turret ammo type with zero rotation but it can still find some use as it is.

ProximityNot as broken but still broken.


ps; Was the buff duration on guns actually increased?