Author Topic: It's The Clawwwwwww!  (Read 44213 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2014, 11:22:33 am »
Yes, claw hurts forward speed. If you think though, ships turn fastest when stationary, so in a way that helps.

The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.

Your junker only requires a short burst to literally do a 180 in seconds. The engineer doesn't have to repair your engines for that maneuver. They are still quite healthy after that. There lies the issue. You changed your guns in mere seconds for no loss. Such power shouldn't just be free.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2014, 12:02:20 pm »
The price of the Claw is that you can't put another item in that slot. I run kerosine, tar, helium/drogue if I am in a fast turning ship, and claw, kerosine, tar if I am in a slow turning ship. The absence of helium or drogue is noticeable when I am in situations that could use them. 

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2014, 12:17:23 pm »
When you don't take the tool yourself, it compounds the problem. The slower turning ship will, and match your turning. Point here being ships that have good turn speed by design should be able to not take claw and still be competitive instead of gimped.

Offline Dementio

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2014, 01:14:35 pm »
I wonder what the removal of the phoenix claw would do to the game.

Offline Nidh

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2014, 01:27:43 pm »
I would take a spyglass.
I wonder what the removal of the phoenix claw would do to the game.

I would actually consider a spyglass. Or tar. Or drogue.

And the squid would be a lot more effective I think.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2014, 01:58:21 pm »
Embrace the spyglass.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2014, 06:23:42 pm »
The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.

The Goldie does need phoenix claw because it is already a fairly crappy turner, only slightly better than a pyra.

Goldie has a turn speed of 13.99 m/s and an acceleration of 7.99 m/s2
Pyra has a turn speed of 11.0 m/s and an acceleration of 6.25 m/s2

For perspective
Junker is 16.18 speed and 15.24 acceleration
Squid is 18.95 speed and 20 acceleration
Galleon is 8.02 speed and 5.06 acceleration
Spire is 11.99 speed and 15.02 acceleration
Mobula is 14.02 speed and 3.50 acceleration

So if a goldie is losing to a pyra in a turn fight then I would say it is his own fault for not bringing a tool to make his less turning ability less than average.

Regardless if a major part of your strategy is trying to win a turn fight you should be bringing a tool that helps turns. It should be "required"

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2014, 07:33:00 pm »
I cannot figure out why you think a new tool will do anything to solve the issue with a different tool.

Because we need a conflict. We have to force players into having conflicting choices. The claw is not conflicted by anything.
But i rather make the other tools better.

If we would change it completely, i suggest, Quicker turning but much more damaging. But changing pheonix claw this much does not show a timeless change.
But thats up to debate like we have now.

Offline Argus Finkle-McGraw

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2014, 08:28:42 pm »
Because we need a conflict. We have to force players into having conflicting choices. The claw is not conflicted by anything.

Well we shouldn't expect new tools anytime soon, but we can flesh out that idea I think.

So maybe you were thinking something like this
Rabbits Foot
  Increases turn speed (example: angular drag -25% - compared to -65% on the claw)
  Increases lift/descent (example: vertical drag -65%)
  DPS to engines (example: 13 dps)
  DPS to balloon (example 13 dps)

Without the turning power of the claw or the lift/descent force components of hydrogen/chute the numbers would need to be balanced around being more flexible but not as strong as the original components.

I personally really like the tools that can be left on for longer periods of time so I'd rather not see a simple DPS increase on the claw in order to balance it.

Offline Queso

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2014, 08:54:56 pm »
Well we shouldn't expect new tools anytime soon,

Heh heh heh...

(The above is not a promise or guarantee of the release of new tools, or any content. Void where prohibited. You must be 18 years or older to apply. No purchase necessary. Only open to residents of the Milky Way Galaxy. For complete rules and regulations and for instructions on how to enter, please summon Cthulhu or other applicable demons, monsters, politicians or lawyers. Please read the EULA of iTunes in at least 3 but no more than 7 languages before electing the devil to Parliament. If on the off chance you become a demi-god or experience the paradoxes of time travel while under the effects of Guns of Icarus Online please consult a doctor. Ask your parents before going online.)

Offline macmacnick

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2014, 02:17:10 am »
There's actually a trust increase, Sammy.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2014, 02:21:18 am »
Increasing claw damage only helps the pyra. Other than the galleon it's the only ship where all engines can easily be repaired by one engineer.

Reducing the effects of the claw would be far more effective at nerfing the perceived claw problems.

Offline Queso

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2014, 08:52:37 am »
I wouldn't say it helps the pyra. If you need to pull a phoenix turn in a pyra you probably want two on guns and be left with one guy who might be able to deal with engines only if the armor isn't taking hits.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2014, 09:35:22 am »
The scenario would be a pyra vs a goldfish or a squid. Both face head on and then pass each other. The goldfish/squid should win the turn fight by design. Claw breaks that design enough so that the pyra can continuously keep arcs on the enemy, while the other ship is forced to endlessly dodge. A pyra by design shouldn't be able to reliably win turn fights. You could argue that the other ship could also bring claw, but that's not a fix. That's a requirement.

The Goldie does need phoenix claw because it is already a fairly crappy turner, only slightly better than a pyra.

Goldie has a turn speed of 13.99 m/s and an acceleration of 7.99 m/s2
Pyra has a turn speed of 11.0 m/s and an acceleration of 6.25 m/s2

For perspective
Junker is 16.18 speed and 15.24 acceleration
Squid is 18.95 speed and 20 acceleration
Galleon is 8.02 speed and 5.06 acceleration
Spire is 11.99 speed and 15.02 acceleration
Mobula is 14.02 speed and 3.50 acceleration

So if a goldie is losing to a pyra in a turn fight then I would say it is his own fault for not bringing a tool to make his less turning ability less than average.

Regardless if a major part of your strategy is trying to win a turn fight you should be bringing a tool that helps turns. It should be "required"

That's nearly 3 m/s faster, with faster acceleration to get there. On paper, the goldie should out-turn the pyra. Sure, that pyra could bring a tool in to help mitigate, but that tool should not just hand him that advantage for no cost in the short term, and very low in the long term. You then, as you say, require the other pilot to do the same. That is not how balanced tools work. That pyra should be able to take that tool to shore up a weakness in his ship, but not in a sustained way, especially with turning.

Increasing claw damage only helps the pyra. Other than the galleon it's the only ship where all engines can easily be repaired by one engineer.

Reducing the effects of the claw would be far more effective at nerfing the perceived claw problems.

I wouldn't mind testing both, but:
Lowering the effectiveness still leaves it spam-able, which I think it the real issue with it. In the end you still have to have it when others do, and I don't think that should be. It would also hurt the galleon more as, it doesn't turn that fast even with current claw. The easy repair of its turners helps it there if damage was increased.

Offline Queso

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Re: It's The Clawwwwwww!
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2014, 10:03:03 am »
Just a note, shouldn't turn speed be in degrees or radians per second, not meters?