Author Topic: "The Cogs" Ruleset  (Read 25023 times)

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2013, 09:43:46 pm »
So then if teams do attempt it...find ways to stop it! It doesn't take long to close range nor to get some long range shots off at someone doing it. Specially if they are in the open.  The other ship will also be vunerable during the time their ally is attempting it. Come on you guys are some of the best at this game, use your heads!!

Now if this was 3v3...might be more issues with it. It would be harder to counter since there would still be 2 ships alive and able to dish out dps. Its not the best of situations but it can be defended against depending on the ships.

Offline JaceBoojah

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [Duck]
    • 10
    • 11 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2013, 10:00:58 pm »
I could think of a lot of strategies to exploit suicides but I don't want to.  I also don't want to have to come up with suicide counter strategies.  All you have to do is say "No suicides" and everything is solved.  Is anyone demanding it to be legal?

Offline Squash

  • Member
  • Salutes: 71
    • [Duck]
    • 11
    • 10 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013, 11:35:50 pm »
I'm with Smollett on this, if a Duck team had done this we would be getting lynched right about now.

Offline N-Sunderland

  • Member
  • Salutes: 281
    • [Duck]
    • 15 
    • 45
    • 23 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2013, 11:45:41 pm »
I'm with Smollett on this, if a Duck team had done this we would be getting lynched right about now.

And if somebody had used it against you, it would be seen as brilliant and heroic, I bet.

Offline Squash

  • Member
  • Salutes: 71
    • [Duck]
    • 11
    • 10 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2013, 12:18:55 am »
In fairness I'd probably be harassing Swallow if someone had done that to us.

Offline Machiavelliest

  • Member
  • Salutes: 35
    • 21 
    • 31
    • 29 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2013, 02:07:49 am »
See this would actually encourage teams to camp their own spawn and never move. You don't need to flee to get out of combat, you just need to get two kills. I can't imagine how frustrated a team would be to charge a team camping their spawn, mortally wound a 1200 permahull galleon, die in the process, charge back at the enemy spawn again to try to finish the wounded Galleon and kill the teammate only to find the Galleon standing with full health.
  This deserves to be brought up again.  If on initial contact red team kills both of the blue team, it's then a race for them to suicide in time to invalidate any of the work the blue team did.  It's obviously an exploit since it drives the game toward killing yourself to gain an advantageous position, and suicide after kills now becomes the Meta.  If Muse had intended ships to reset after one side was killed, they would already do that.

It's poor sportsmanship, an exploit, and a terrible direction for the game wrapped in to one.  I'm kind of surprised there's even a discussion about it as if it was a legitimate tactic in any way.  Swallow, if you've already said yourself it's "immoral" and might lead to an obnoxious and frustrating, possibly game-breaking problem later, don't you have any cognitive dissonance about supporting, if not encouraging it?

Offline knoxi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 4
    • [DvG]
    • 23
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2013, 05:54:16 am »
Anyone else starting to wonder how this (the issue of suicide) is ... or ever was even a discussion? Seeing that there are obviously a hundred one reasons why it shouldn't be allowed and no good reason why it should be, other than to be disrespectful or create drama or a plethora of other negative things that this community has done so amazingly well thus far to avoid. My mind is beginning to boggle.

Offline Squash

  • Member
  • Salutes: 71
    • [Duck]
    • 11
    • 10 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2013, 09:31:52 am »
Knoxi, it's because of this: http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/402287974

Go to 1:40:30 and you'll see the first time in a competitive match it was used. I don't think anyone's saying "Black Flight shouldn't of done it", but the question that people asked is "should this be allowed?" Swallow recently said in this forum the answer is "Yes, it is allowed", and so people are questioning that. That's what this thread is for.

So that's why!

Offline Brick Hardcastle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 12
    • [TBB]
    • 10 
    • 33
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2013, 10:52:13 am »
I'm glad Smollett elaborated on things a little. This isn't really about The Paddling or BFS. We were just the ones who let the genie out of the bottle who opened pandora's box, causing all the worms contained in all the cans in the world to burst out.

A great deal of the arguments for and against this tactic are based on speculation at this point. I'm pretty sure that's why Swallow is continuing to allow it. It could turn out to be an occasional risk/reward tactic that sometimes goes horribly wrong, or it could indeed be something everyone uses all the time that breaks the game and has to be changed. Thing is, changing the Cogs or the mechanics of GoI based on one moment in one game is pretty dramatic, and I can see why Swallow and Muse would go with the "wait and see" approach instead. Personally, I don't have any particular attachment to suicide tactics one way or the other, and I'll adapt to the changes best I can on the rocky road to GoI becoming more well-balanced.

Offline knoxi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 4
    • [DvG]
    • 23
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2013, 11:07:44 am »
Knoxi, it's because of this: http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/402287974

Go to 1:40:30 and you'll see the first time in a competitive match it was used. I don't think anyone's saying "Black Flight shouldn't of done it", but the question that people asked is "should this be allowed?" Swallow recently said in this forum the answer is "Yes, it is allowed", and so people are questioning that. That's what this thread is for.

So that's why!

Yeah, I've watched the match. I understand that it's impossible to punish a team for something that isn't against the rules of a competition, not sure if I somehow implied that, if so it wasn't intentional.

And I've been listening to people asking the "...should this be allowed?" question a lot...

My retort is, "Why is, in any sane world, the question even being asked?", let alone being dragged out for this long.

Deliberately suiciding to bypass hull damage is against the spirit of the community, the spirit of sportsmanship, the spirit of competition, and allowed or not it's still an exploit by any definition.

And the sad fact is, everyone knows, having seen that video, that this was not the first time Black Flight have done this. It was calculated, planned, and well executed with intent knowing they needed to suicide and knowing they needed to do so whilst hidden, whilst avoiding damage to not be penalised a death. How many public games was this used in prior to this ... and how many after? In other games we're all familiar with, not reporting and then exploting is a bannable offense.

Yet seemingly intelligent and respectful people are "asking" whether this should be allowed... whilst others defend it or try and validate it. To what end? Why?

The only reason I can come up with is, it made a stream and competition narrative seem a little more exciting. At the cost of what? Everyone rushing to suicide after each engagement to try and get the upper hand on permahull that's exploited to no longer be permanent.

Stop asking whether it should be allowed and thereby validating it. Ask whether you want to be taking part in a competition where exploiting is not only condoned but heralded as intelligent and innovative. Sure, don't punish Black Flight for exploiting, but to then create a situation where teams will be punished if they don't ... with no intention to offend, I find that disgusting and I doubt I'm the only one.

Offline Swallox

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 30
    • [Muse]
    • 15 
    • 10
    • 16 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2013, 11:38:23 am »
...Well it's good to see some people keeping an open mind.

IF (I will stress this again) IF it turns out to be a genuine problem rather than an occasional sneaky tactic, it will be disallowed in Season 2. However, if this turns out to be the counter to sniping teams, I am not going to remove it before the teams have had a fair chance to use it.

I am not willing to remove what could potentially be an interesting manuver because of knee-jerk reactions based on what certain people think might happen. I haven't seen anything yet to suggest to me that suiciding is going to be a widely exploited tactic.

And while we're on the subject, this DOES exist in other games. Anything from jumping off a building or leaping on your own grenade in an FPS to killing your own minions or even allied champions in MOBAs. It's called Denial, and it's been a part of gaming since some bright spark decided that he didn't quite want to give someone else a kill in quake or unreal tournament.

Exploiting a game's mechanics for the benefit of you or your team is usually wrong. The quick repair trick or the Ai fire extinguisher, for instance, are exploits because they're obviously underhanded and come with no visible downside... But suiciding a ship and denying a camping enemy a kill takes time and is inherently risky.

Until it is proven in-game that denial is not suitable for a GoIO match, I am not going to take action against the teams that might decide to use it. Much like tower diving in ARAM LoL, this is obviously a polarising issue that some teams have taken issue with... And if you find yourself in that position, it might be worth considering how and where your opponents may try to deny themselves. It could turn out that with a some foresight and a little moonshine, you could secure a kill from an attempted denial with a single round of gatling and turn that team's denial into a huge fail.

In short: Consider how this can benefit either side depending on the situation, and find a way to deal with it in-game rather than just screaming for it to be banned... Because I didn't ban mercs to curb sniping, I didn't ban artemis launchers when they were clearly broken... And until it's proven that denial is unsustainable for the competitive environment or Muse recode the game so that suicides are rendered useless and award the other team a kill anyway, I am not going to remove the option from The Cogs.

Offline Shinkurex

  • CA Mod
  • Salutes: 102
    • [MM]
    • 45 
    • 20
    • 43 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2013, 12:20:05 pm »
Knoxi, While I do understand your frustration, Please refrain from personal attacks, as it goes against our Code of conduct:

2. Trolling/Harassment

    Trolling or harassment includes personal verbal attacks, insults, communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, making unwelcome sexual advances, or engaging in other activities intended or likely to cause disruption, annoyance or alarm. You may not harass, threaten, or troll other players or representatives of Muse Games.

I am removing your post for now...

~Shink

Offline knoxi

  • Member
  • Salutes: 4
    • [DvG]
    • 23
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2013, 12:37:56 pm »
I apologise, I didn't realise stating the community standards or refering to my big shiney Junker was against the Community standards. I'II avoid making unwelcome sexual advances in future.

Offline Machiavelliest

  • Member
  • Salutes: 35
    • 21 
    • 31
    • 29 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2013, 01:23:52 pm »
I'm not convinced suiciding will be a widely-exploited tactic.  I am very convinced it is an exploit, and that it is therefore an invalid tactic that has no place in the community.  Whether it is 'widely' or 'occasionally' exploited is immaterial.

The narrow argument for having this tactic considered 'acceptable' is that it's a counter to sniping.  In what way is that at all true?  It denies the sniping team a kill, true, but the team suiciding doesn't gain a kill.  They just run and die.  As mentioned earlier by probably Smollett, it has the obvious conclusion of dragging an already long sniping match out further.

I would equate it to a beanball (which for those not familiar in baseball is intentionally hitting a batter with a pitch to walk them instead of allowing them to hit, usually used against powerful hitters).  You might claim that, since the rules account for being hit by a pitch, it's a legitimate tactic.  However, for intentionally beaning a batter, pitchers are ejected from games and fined large sums of money.  Because it's unsportsmanlike, an 'exploit', and cheating in all reality.  Just because it can be done in the construct of the game doesn't mean it should be, or should be tolerated.

Offline Swallox

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 30
    • [Muse]
    • 15 
    • 10
    • 16 
    • View Profile
Re: "The Cogs" Ruleset
« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2013, 02:32:16 pm »
I am very convinced it is an exploit

Therein lies the problem. I'm not convinced yet. The arguments I've heard against denial all go back to the same point. That "It's an exploit" or that "It's unsportsmanlike".

I'd say that flying around someone while spouting flame and harpoons into their airship is fairly unsportsmanlike, and as for it being an exploit, I addressed that above.