Author Topic: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches  (Read 57445 times)

Offline GreyTea

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2014, 03:18:11 am »
I can see both sides to this, but what builds counter the meta? would they not become the new meta if they could,

Gat mortar pyra-with 1 main engineer 2 buff 2 chem 1 extinguisher is the most used ship/load out imho least it seems the most you see in high level games and competitive,

Then 2nd most would be the artimus hades junker with gat mortar or carronade flamer,

What builds counter them to that is such a problem? Near enough every high level captain has a predetermined loadout which involves chem for fire builds, and a mix of bralwer short and medium range ships.

The only counter i can see is the sniping and long range game is slowly becoming less because most long ranges ships like say lumberjack flak galleon is still susceptible to the art and merc so people do not risk it  incase people switch to say double merc pyra art junker ect.

Other than that it is pretty much the same builds witch are fairly well balanced Double Pyra vs double junker or a mix of both,  then it comes down to the skill of the team and terrain use to close the distance. So if somone could shout out what counters gat mortar pyra i would be all ears ^.^ ill perfect that build :P. as for the junker i believe there is some builds that counter it but it depends heavily on skill.

Thanks and if we can come to some consensus of the problem and solution i will certainly ask the questions and find out if and what can be done.

Perhaps an option in match making could be added in the future for the likes of blind builds or lock builds then it is an option and not restriction to players who do not see it as a problem?

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2014, 08:19:37 am »
buff drogue chute and we will not switch our ships if the enemy wants to bring double blenderfish ;)

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2014, 08:23:59 am »
Changing ships and loadouts is obviously a sign of a team who's comfortable with a variety of builds and tactics, and removing a team's ability to adapt to its' enemy is just plain silly. Draft wouldn't work so well either, 4 ships are way few to draft as previously mentioned.

Not surprisingly, I think it's the least experienced teams that insist on constant 'hard-countering' and ship changes. The stronger teams will usually be the first ones to give up on the swapping game and just say 'f it' and go in. Interestingly enough, you can often see strong teams going with builds that even seem counter-intuitive or unreliable versus the enemies' ones and still win with ease.

Instead of trying to regulate ship swapping (which I will admit gets extremely annoying at times), I'd suggest instead making your teams comfortable with more builds and practicing them even against so-called 'hard counters'.

Offline GreyTea

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2014, 08:31:30 am »
buff drogue chute and we will not switch our ships if the enemy wants to bring double blenderfish ;)

Am not to worryed nothing counters Merc squid haha ;)

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 11:15:37 am »
Either we need to decide whether we are going to make picking and counter-picking part of the game, officially, or we should Blind pick, or we should have a couple different ways, and tournaments can choose which they like. 

Right now, there are no rules.  It needs to be addressed.

Or have a time limit in the lobby and let people change ships as much as they want. changing ships isn't so much of a problem as long lobby time is.

buff drogue chute and we will not switch our ships if the enemy wants to bring double blenderfish ;)

That is actually a fairly good idea that kind of touches on why the pyra is so popular, the pyra is the only ship that has a semi protected balloon. This doesn't make the pyra good, it is simply safer.

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2014, 11:29:45 am »
Think about it this way: if both teams want to hide their ships until the last second and change it then, they're already trying to do double blind with the random chance that they will wait too long and the game will start with the wrong ship.  If we change it to really be double blind, then we have the same sort of idea without the silly chance that you accidentally take the wrong ship and no stupid lobby minigames.

Offline Queso

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2014, 02:00:16 pm »
The real fix for this would be a sort of competitive drafting process much like Dota or LoL. Say team 1 gets to pick a ship, team 2 gets picks 2 and 3, and the team 1 gets last pick. Now obviously this won't work for every tournament, and may favor one side or the other, but it would be better than going in double blind every time. You could get some interesting types of drafting as well. Maybe teams first get to pick ships in a draft, and then they pick gun loud-outs.

Offline RomanKar

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2014, 03:10:55 pm »
Again, what do time limits really do?  My post is not about the amount of time it takes, how long we sit in lobby.  My point is there are no rules covering this area.  Putting a time limit on anarchy is not dealing with it. 

And I don't buy the, "just get better," or ,"the best team will win anyway" idea either.  If that were truly the case, the supposed best wouldn't swap ever, no matter what the other team has, and it is clear that there is at least some swapping, people are insisting that there be a way to swap ships or weapons once you see your opponent.

Or how about this scenerio"

5 minute timer

My team has two Mobies up to see in lobby.  The other team has two spires (stick with me on this one, as ridiculous as it may be).  No one does any switching for say 2-3 minutes.  The other team readies.  Me and my teammate switch to double pyri and ready and the 5 second countdown  finished before the other team realizes what happened.

I know, I know, the other team should have paid attention, unreadying when they saw the swap. 

To put it bluntly, whoever is willing to be the bigger a-holes and take advantage of the lack of rules surrounding this area get a bit of a leg up on the competition.  Does it always work? No, of course not.  But that doesn't make it acceptable on the competitive level. 

It is tantamount to sneaky and dirty play.  It gives teams a reason to bitch and call foul. 

Again, I don't have the end all, be all of answers to this problem, but to say this problem doesn't exist or to say putting a timer on it is the answer doesn't seem realistic.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2014, 03:26:20 pm »
Hiding ships and switching at last second in competitive lobby like this, should be against the rules in itself and be punished in some way (like disqualification or just a forfeit).
However, it is rather rare that this happens in general, may it be competitive or even pub.

The time limit is not to limit anarchy, but limits the time it takes for both teams to feel comfortable with their choices, and it does work.

The thing with the "the best team will win anyway" worked for the Mandarians, as they always went double metajunker no matter what the enemy had.


I do not see how the current system is problematic. In the end both teams are ready and from what I can tell, somebody has yet to say "Not fair! The enemy team took better ships than us!".

Offline Hunter.

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2014, 04:19:49 pm »
How about this for a method of "drafting" ships, moba style. Each team has 30 seconds+80 seconds bonus time to pick EACH ship.

Red picks their first ship and loadout, they then "lock" it and are unable to change their crew loadout and ship loadout, then Blue has 30 seconds+80 for their first ship, and then 30+80 for the second, Red then have the same for their final ship.

This would be a pain to admin but is the fairest as it allows various advantages to both teams. Red gets the advantage of seeing both the enemy ships and Blue gets to pick both their ships at the same time, after seeing the first of the Red ships. This allows for them to force the enemy to pick something which doesn't synergise with their first ship.

Example of what could happen in a draft, this match will take place on Fjords, for the sake of it being one of the most balanced maps imo (this is another debate though which should not happen here).

Red picks up a hades/flak pyra with kerosene, they intend to go ranged and it can be comboed with almost anything. (This takes 10 seconds, as they have pre-decided this)
Blue sees this and decides they are going to counter it by going hwacha-fish and carronade-midion, hwacha to kill the pyra and carronade to deny the enemy a junker pick up. (Overall the first pick took 50 seconds, leaving then with 60 seconds of bonus time and the second pick took a further 50 leaving them with 40 seconds of bonus time)
Red decide that the best course of action is a second hades/flak pyra. (this takes 60 seconds and they end the draft with 50 seconds)

This would of course be best in a Best of 3 game due to having the fairness of both teams getting to draft on each side, the third game would be decided by whoever is playing from the lower bracket choosing which side (if it was that format), or the loser of the first game decides.

Anyway, That's my idea, adjust/discuss as you wish.

Edit: 30+80 might be overkill, but that's something to discuss
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 04:21:29 pm by Hunter. »

Offline RomanKar

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2014, 04:28:26 pm »
Except I'm saying it right now.  We are counting on a gentleman's agreement not to turn it into complete anarchy.  And even the metajunkers will change weapon loadouts for the ships they are opposing.

It works right now, maybe, because either both teams just settle and stop, or one side just decides not to play the ship swap lobby mini game.

Neither of these options is acceptable in my opinion.


Offline RomanKar

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2014, 04:30:55 pm »
The problem with a draft type system that you propose is that the second team gets to counter pick both times.  I would think it would need to be a 1-2-1 type thing.  Team 1 takes 1 ship and loadout, team 2 takes both ships, Team 1 takes its last ship.

Offline Queso

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2014, 04:54:39 pm »
The problem with a draft type system that you propose is that the second team gets to counter pick both times.  I would think it would need to be a 1-2-1 type thing.  Team 1 takes 1 ship and loadout, team 2 takes both ships, Team 1 takes its last ship.

Pretty much what I was saying up above. If you wanted to spice things up a little. Ships draft Blue1, Red2, Blue1, and then guns draft Red1ship, Blue2ships, Red1ship.

Offline Hunter.

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2014, 06:19:32 pm »
The problem with a draft type system that you propose is that the second team gets to counter pick both times.  I would think it would need to be a 1-2-1 type thing.  Team 1 takes 1 ship and loadout, team 2 takes both ships, Team 1 takes its last ship.

What do you mean? Mine is 1-2-1 :S

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2014, 07:04:01 pm »
Swapping ships or weapons to counter your opponent shouldn't be seen as bad sportsman ship. It's a valid strategy that has it's own strengths and weaknesses.