Author Topic: The role of an Engineer  (Read 2231 times)

Offline Victor Wonderpump

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The role of an Engineer
« on: May 24, 2014, 09:39:43 am »
Wouldn't pilot skills be more suited for the engineer than the pilot? Coming fresh to the game recently, I expected the Engineers being responsible for pushing the airframe above the safe operating limits to give the pilot some extra performance he needs.
Now the engineers are more like Steampunk janitors servicing the airship as it deteriorates during the game.

As I look the pure gameplay of the engineer class, it seems rather dull role to play. You are better than any other class in hitting stationary objects around the ship with a rubber mallet, wrench etc. and you run around doing just that as the engagement escalates (yes I know I'm exaggerating to make a point, and engineer class is now considered to be the most useful class, but that is only because it can do adequately all other roles when needed).

Now if the Engineer would be responsible for filling the balloon with helium, opening the moonshine tank valve, operating the chute vent, pouring tar directly in engines etc. he would take more direct role in PVP to outplaying the opposition and thus making the game more exiting for that role (and it would help the engineer class to stay in its role while letting pilot and gunner(s) to stick to theirs - you know gunners sticking to gunning, and captains focusing on maneuvering and communicating what he wants to be done next).

That was my first impression on that role, anyways awesome game! I like the slow pace co-op pvp experience and the visuals.  I'm quite exited about the Adventure mode.

Offline SirNotlag

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 11:11:16 am »
I found the fun from the engineer role comes from when the ship crew actually works as a team and the pilot tells you long before hes actually burning the component to get enhanced performance and gives you time to shout back if thats a bad idea.

 ex " Im gona use hydrogen to get us out of here!" mean while an enemy flamer is pointed straight at your balloon "NO captain well reenact the hindenburg!".

There are plenty of small things to the repairing of the ship that take a lot of situational awareness to get right as well. learning routes around the ship to minimize the time between cool downs and anticipating what component is going to break next, and prioritizing what to fix when everything is broken.

Engineers also have thousands of little tricks that can be performed depending on the situation. Ex when the pilot is burning kerosene to zip past an enemy ship with the intention of turning around to put your ship on their rear, repairing the outermost turning engine as you pass the ship will speed up the turn. Pre-building is another example when you hit a component till it only has one hit before being rebuilt but then waiting till after the enemy hits you with a destructive volley so that you can get the most time out of the component before the enemy breaks it again.

If you could not tell I completely disagree with you that pilot skills should go to the engineer, pilot is in control of the ship and its movement. Sure his skills damage components but that is why he is supposed to work with the engineers to keep everything in good condition, it just doesn't make sense to give those skills to other people cause then you would be left with a pilot who has no idea why his ship is doing what its doing.

"WHY THE HELL IS THIS THING GOING UP! I CANT STOP IT!" "Oh thats cause i put hydrogen in the balloon, i saw that galleon was way above us and all." " YOU IDIOT YOUR PUTTING US RIGHT INFRONT OF HIS GUNS!" " well jeeze hes above all our gun arcs i was just trying to help." "WERE ALL GONA DIE! AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!" <Loud explosions as galleon fires full volley, and they die>

The engineering job isnt about shooting its about management and situational awareness, which a lot of people including myself like, if you don't find that interesting stick to the other classes, and if your every forced engineer... hey at least you get to sit on the guns when not taking damage.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 11:13:33 am by SirNotlag »

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 11:52:25 am »
Well i see that you are new, so first lemme explain some things to expect when you join a clan.

When you join a clan, you will most likely be orginized with clan peeps. So the chances of being on an orginized ship is greater.
When you are in an orginized ship every role are split. Gunner does something, engineer does something, that other engineer does something and the pilot does something.
Here are the things that higher level usually do.

Engineers sometimes have the act of being full time engineering. So not much gunning for him if at all.
Engineers sometimes get responsibility to one or 2 components, while gunning. These are called Gunengineers.
Some engineers are responsible for Everything, buffing and repairing and Gunning. This is probably the hardest and most effective one to have. However you loose the ability for him to spot as he is in his limits.
All engineers and Gunners Spot for the pilot. So that the pilot has 3 helm tools. Engineers and gunners look around to spot enemy ships for the pilot so that the pilot can more easily be aware.
There are some engineer build where they trade a gun because of their ammo. Like on a goldfish with hwacha, 2 engineers are the same but they switch out on range. One holds heavy clip for hwacha in range, but the other one holds burst for hwacha in Close Range.

Engineers usualy have a clear vision for ship limitations. This is something i as a pilot learned alot about simply playing as engineers/Gunners.
For example, if you play Pilot for a while and feel all the benefits from having engineers/gunners, then you know what to GIVE to other pilots whenever you are engineer.
I love to play as
Quote
Some engineers are responsible for Everything, buffing and repairing and Gunning. This is probably the hardest and most effective one to have. However you loose the ability for him to spot as he is in his limits.
Because i like to relief the pilot with the buffs, and availability to gun. So that he expects a better working ship with a gun ready to fire constantly. etc etc.

Gunners can learn from being pilots. For example, not shooting directly on sight, but rather be aware if his own ship isnt moving too much and then fire.
While pilots learn on comfortability of the crew. Like if his build is way to demanding for the crew, he should switch out.


Now regarding your suggestion, it will potentialy sabotage the ship. There is a reason why a pilot is the captain, because he knows the ship, and thus in control of it. You mostly fulfill his requierments. But because of your timing as an engineer, you can make for a tanky ship.

Gunners have part timing, but mostly skill as their gameplay.
Pilots have experience + Mentality as their gameplay. (Or so imo)

Offline WafflesToo

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 02:14:44 pm »

Some engineers are responsible for Everything, buffing and repairing and Gunning. This is probably the hardest and most effective one to have. However you loose the ability for him to spot as he is in his limits.

Again, not clan but pub matches, every attempt of mine to play as a buffgineer has resulted in me feeling like a lead-weight around my captain's neck.  Not a feeling I enjoy at all and I doubt it's earning me any friends. 

I'm finding that the pipe wrench just isn't good enough to keep the hull up in a heavy firefight.  Maybe there's something I'm missing or doing wrong, I'd love some pointers.

(stares angrily at the buffing achievements)

Offline Victor Wonderpump

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 03:18:28 pm »
I found the fun from the engineer role comes from when the ship crew actually works as a team and the pilot tells you long before hes actually burning the component to get enhanced performance and gives you time to shout back if thats a bad idea.

 ex " Im gona use hydrogen to get us out of here!" mean while an enemy flamer is pointed straight at your balloon "NO captain well reenact the hindenburg!".
Ok, but how's that an argument against giving pilot skills for  the engineer to manually operate? From my point of view you are actually endorsing giving the pilot skills to the engineer as the "fun" at times is about disagreeing with the pilot about the course of action. If the engineer has supervision over these systems he actually has a say in how they are used instead of just complaining about it - no?
There are plenty of small things to the repairing of the ship that take a lot of situational awareness to get right as well. learning routes around the ship to minimize the time between cool downs and anticipating what component is going to break next, and prioritizing what to fix when everything is broken.

Engineers also have thousands of little tricks that can be performed depending on the situation. Ex when the pilot is burning kerosene to zip past an enemy ship with the intention of turning around to put your ship on their rear, repairing the outermost turning engine as you pass the ship will speed up the turn. Pre-building is another example when you hit a component till it only has one hit before being rebuilt but then waiting till after the enemy hits you with a destructive volley so that you can get the most time out of the component before the enemy breaks it again.

If you could not tell I completely disagree with you that pilot skills should go to the engineer, pilot is in control of the ship and its movement. Sure his skills damage components but that is why he is supposed to work with the engineers to keep everything in good condition, it just doesn't make sense to give those skills to other people cause then you would be left with a pilot who has no idea why his ship is doing what its doing.

"WHY THE HELL IS THIS THING GOING UP! I CANT STOP IT!" "Oh thats cause i put hydrogen in the balloon, i saw that galleon was way above us and all." " YOU IDIOT YOUR PUTTING US RIGHT INFRONT OF HIS GUNS!" " well jeeze hes above all our gun arcs i was just trying to help." "WERE ALL GONA DIE! AAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!" <Loud explosions as galleon fires full volley, and they die>
But when it comes down to actual gameplay mechanics, it's just running around the ship hitting inanimate objects with rubber mallets or whatnot.
To be clear I'm not arguing that there is no tactics in the role of an engineer, I'm just saying that I can't this kind of gameplay interesting for the majority on the long run as the pvp aspect of this role is pretty weak. There is definitely good engineers and bad engineers out there.
To me the most fun in this role simply comes from the awesome co-op action, working with your team to overcome the opposition - and not from the things you actually do (game mechanics wise) in game. I totally dig the whole co-op pvp thing here.
The engineering job isnt about shooting its about management and situational awareness, which a lot of people including myself like, if you don't find that interesting stick to the other classes, and if your every forced engineer... hey at least you get to sit on the guns when not taking damage.
Agreed, I never made that claim.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2014, 03:41:38 pm »
Play some more games before drawing conclusions on the engineer's role.

If you're finding the engineer role as stale and boring you're playing it wrong. Engineer is a class that's hard to learn and has absolutely no skill ceiling whatsoever. I have over 1500 games as engineer and I find myself improving with each game played.

Offline Victor Wonderpump

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2014, 03:56:49 pm »
.....
Got it.
Now regarding your suggestion, it will potentialy sabotage the ship. There is a reason why a pilot is the captain, because he knows the ship, and thus in control of it. You mostly fulfill his requierments. But because of your timing as an engineer, you can make for a tanky ship.

Gunners have part timing, but mostly skill as their gameplay.
Pilots have experience + Mentality as their gameplay. (Or so imo)
So is this the same argument SirNotlag made about confusing the piloting of an airship too much if controls of mobility are split between players?  If so ok, I understand this argument. If this change would take effect, you would still be fulfilling captains requirements, so nothing of that gameplay wouldn't be taken away. This change wouldn't weaken the engineers role, it would define it further towards engineering.

Offline Victor Wonderpump

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2014, 04:03:54 pm »
Play some more games before drawing conclusions on the engineer's role.

If you're finding the engineer role as stale and boring you're playing it wrong. Engineer is a class that's hard to learn and has absolutely no skill ceiling whatsoever. I have over 1500 games as engineer and I find myself improving with each game played.

Yeah i made the claim that engineering is "rather dull role to play" - a subjective opinion like yours. However I didn't claim that there is no room for improvement or that there is a hard skill ceiling in that role, that is all your interpretation of my post.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 05:36:58 pm »
Another thing to take note is every ship is different, have you tried engineering on every ship? Some are harder, right?
Along with some ships requier you to shoot. While Buffing makes for  enhancing the ship, while extinguishing is to solve a problem.
Dont forget that you still have a pilot tool, and a gunner tool and the ability to jump on a gun.

If you want to be a GOOD engineer, practice timing.
For example, it is possible to repair the hull and engines with the mallet in one run and come back at the hull with still time to spare. (Pyramideon)
On a, lets say a goldfish, to get to side engines, you want to jump down from baloon. So you can repair, main engine, baloon and side engines.
On a spire. You can wack the main engine, Hull and jump down for the baloon and side engines, then walk up the path for the Main gun, then walk up some more and you will be on time for the hull and main engine cycle again.

Offline JaegerDelta

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 08:26:51 pm »
well as you all are busy not actually responding to his post and just telling him to play engineer more and play it better, lets actually take a look at the suggestion.

your suggestion of giving the pilot tools to the engineer is an interesting one, however, that would require engineers have the ability to take pilot tools as well as repairing tools if they are still going to be in charge of repairing the ship. this presents a problem as it would essentially remove the pilot as a class. 

the way it is set up right now 1 class can influence the movement of the ship better than all others, 1 one class can influence the health of the ship better than all others , and 1 class can influence the guns of the ship better than all others. and this is, i think, the proper way to have the 3 classes laid out to promote intra-ship cooperation, the pilot cannot use those tools if the engineer does not repair damaged components, the engineer cannot repair damaged components effectively if the gunner does not destroy damage sources (be that an enemy ship or the components on that enemy ship), the gunner cannot remove damage sources if the pilot does not position the ship correctly.  if the engineer could influence the movement and health of the ship better than all others why have the other classes at all? the engineer would be the correct choice for every member of the crew for maximum ship versatility and combat effectiveness.

your perception that the engineer does not contribute to the pvp, while not technically incorrect, is lacking in the big picture view of the situation.  the combat in this game is not between individual players on each ship, it is between ships as a whole, each member of the crew working together as one cohesive unit. perhaps that is a failing of the game that it does not present that perspective clear enough. but that is a debate to have in a different topic.

all in all, welcome to the game and the forums. and keep up posting suggestions, looking at why the game is as it is and looking at why or why not the game should have some new piece of content are both equally important.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 08:34:21 pm by JaegerDelta »

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 01:32:43 am »
Yes, I agree with OP that the engineering minigame is not quite as flashy and spectacular as piloting or shooting, and this is a 'problem' shared by lots of other 'healing' classes in class-based game, like healers in mmos or the medic in tf2. When you do your job well, nothing changes except the fact that you win more.

However engineering is no less deep and challenging than either of the other two aspects, some would say more. Between managaing repair cooldown and buff/rebuild time, coordinating with the pilot on tool use, plus being a part-time gunner and trying to spot/anticipate sources and targets of damage, I think engineers have plenty to do.

As for giving the engineers pilot tools, I kind of like it but have some doubts. The pilot has the tools because his sole job is making the ship move and coordinate everyone- all he does is stand at the helm looking around and deciding what to do. If the pilot's tools are taken away, what would you suggest to replace them? please don't say spyglass/rangefinder.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 06:34:52 am »
Omniraptor put it well. Depending on how your captain runs the ship, main engineer is the ship's first mate.

Good main engineer has better overview of what is happening than either of the gunners (being on gun reduces your FOW and gives you tunel vision), knows what sort of damage he can anticipate when, when it's time to chem, when it's time to repair, when it's time to extinguish, when to buff, and what order to repair components in - depending on the situation. Also knowingwhen you can afford to jump on the gun and shoot.

Offline pandatopia

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 10:21:44 am »
I'm wondering OP's opinion on gunning.

Gunning (no offense gunners) is just engineering but with fewer tools.

It is strictly less responsibility than an engineer, especially in higher level matches. There is a reason 3 engies is viable and 3 gunners is not.

Bottomline is, what is stopping you, as an engie, from gunning? Nothing in the game mechanics for sure.

I mean piloting is boring too! You don't even get to run around! Just sit at the wheel all day =P

I think one of the things that new players need to learn early on (or risk being burnt out) is that there is no clear cut role.

Engies can gun.
Gunners can repair.
Pilots can also do both.

It is entirely dependent on what you're comfortable with and what you're willing to try that will determine what makes a class "fun" for you or not.

Offline SakuraTenshi

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Re: The role of an Engineer
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 11:14:01 pm »
Having played this game for a bit, but not quite as versed on the metagame myself, I do think that each class could use some buffing to make it more interesting, some thoughts of mine are:

for engineers:
-Make engineers run faster and jump higher
To aid in moving around the ship in repairs. This can be either an inherent ability or a new tool
-More tools and buffing tools
Like, Maybe a bucket of water that can instantly put out all fires no matter how many stacks but will do a small amount of damage? (or maybe the fire extinguisher does this, I don't use it terribly often) Or maybe have the buff hammer repair extremely small amounts with each swing or a decent amount each time it applies/reapplies the upgrade. (also maybe allow it so when it buffs one engine, it buffs all of them)

For gunners:
A bit more versatility, maybe in addition to ammo types, gunners can load up on some tools or a skills slots that allow for small buffs an effects then they're gunning like
-Quick loaders: increases reload speed
-Weapon Maintenance Training: allows gunners to repair their guns from broken faster/heals more
-Point blank shooting: deal bonus damage the closer a target is
-Sniper: deal bonus damage the further a target is

Pilots:
I think they might need something similar to my suggestion for gunners: like a single slot where a skill, training, or special tool can be added that makes things easier for them and their whole crews like...
-Dare devil: Self-damaging items you use have even greater benefits!
-"Play it safe": reduces penalties from items you use
-Factory Standard model: your ship does not benefit from items as much as others, but your engineers have a much easier time repairing it. (either reducing cooldown needed to repair or increase repair amounts per-swing)
-"ALL POWER TO WEAPONS!": Guns on your ship deal extra damage at the expense of (something, I don't know)