The Fight Club [SIGNUP]

[Urz]

Welcome to The Fight Club, an on-going series of competitive scrimmage matches where we pit two of the best teams in the game versus, in what will surely be play of the highest caliber. Or that's the plan, at least. The games will be streamed and commentated by the esteemed videographer, Qwerty.

The format is simple: each week two teams will play a best of five set, starting with a blind pick loadout, and moving into a ban/pick/counterpick procedure for the subsequent games. The teams will be given a week to study their opponents and prepare for their set.

Signup and preparation
If you're a captain wishing to signup for The Fight Club, feel free to post in this thread or contact myself (Urz) in-game or on Steam. Ideally the matches will take place sometime on the weekend (Friday/Saturday/Sunday), and scheduling will be a combination of first-come first-served and best effort on part of the organizers to accommodate everyone reasonably. We will try to schedule the games at least five days in advance. You will be notified of the starting map order at this point.

Crew lineups are not required to be submitted ahead of time and may be adjusted at any point prior to the match; once the match starts however your crew will be locked in for the duration. Feel free to provide crew information ahead of time for the sake of flavoring the stream.

Pre-game procedure
The Fight Club has a strictly defined pre-game procedure which exists in effort to cultivate diversity in the competitive metagame.

For the first three games, the maps will be randomly selected from our map pool. At the time of the match, a representative from each team will provide us with the loadout ("loadout" referring to the ship choices and weapon configuration) they will use for the first game. This is the blind pick.

Upon completion of the first game, and prior to all subsequent games, we will go into the following ban/pick/counterpick procedure:

(for the fourth and fifth games only) Loser picks map
Winner may elect to ban one weapon: the chosen weapon may not be used on either ship for the following game
Loser may elect to ban one weapon
Winner may change their loadout: at no other point the loadout may be changed and it is then locked for the following game
Loser may change their loadout

Map pool
Battle on the Dunes
Canyon Ambush
Duel at Dawn
Northern Fjords

[Squash]

Okay, step by step.

1. There's already a competitive league on weekends, it's called the Cogs.
b) If you really want another weekly competitive event, Jace Boojah has been trying to get one started for weeks: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,229.0.html

2. Why best of FIVE? 3-5 games are a lot. Last week's Cogs took an hour and twenty minutes and it was only three games.

3. You identify yourself as an organiser, but you're also an organiser of the Crows. You want people to send their loadouts to you before the match? And you want to pick the level?

4. Weapon bans? Why?

5. Why the deliberate loadout changing? Why is it so important what order people change their loadouts?

This seems like a really weird set up. Not having a set time and day is a disaster waiting to happen, Qwerty also wont be on call all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday every week to stream this.



Occasionally people came on to the older forum and said "hey, I want to start a fan site and maybe a forum board", and usually please say "great idea but please don't do that." It's a really small community, and splitting it up into a smaller community would be more hurtful than helpful, even if well intentioned. The same is true with this stuff.  In terms of "cultivating diversity in the competitive metagame", we don't need more contests, we need more new players to join the existing competitive league, The Cogs.

If more new players realize that competitive play is accessible, we'll see more teams enter, and have a livelier, more exciting metagame. Look at the Fjords tournament, 15 teams played. Now look at Cogs, we've got 8 teams in the Cogs, half as many. As competitive players we can encourage new people to form their own teams and try their hands at it. We do that by spreading Qwerty's live stream, and encouraging teamwork on our own ships in casual games.

The Cogs is the competitive heart of this game and encouraging the competitive community can only be done by encouraging The Cogs.

[Morblitz]

Agreed with Squash. Plus, the cogs just started. It hasn't even had 3 weeks yet. There's actually a lot of interest in playing in it and people (even those not affiliated with the big clans) are in the process of assembling teams. That's really the only problem right now, team assembly. But as more players come into the game and people start getting into the competitive scene they'll start to form themselves together and we'll have more and more teams signing up. I am really looking forward to the cogs having as many, if not more teams than those that participated in Fjords.

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't see how fracturing the competitive play is a viable option. The cogs is a great idea/league, can we just give it some time?

[Urz]

Step by step, huh?

You misunderstand something important. This is not a "league". This is just an formalization of team scrimmages in a way which promotes higher level play on both sides, documents the matches in a way that converts them into accessible content for everyone, as well as test out potential new rulesets designed to address serious issues in the current competitive scene. There is no "ranking". This is not a 16 man tournament. This is one best of five set at a time. As such, if aspects of the current ruleset end up not working (for instance best of five being untenable from a time perspective), they can be adjusted easily. This also gives us a lot of flexibility in scheduling since we're only working between two teams and qwerty's schedule.

As for the loadout picking/counterpicking, that is a very basic mechanic utilized by many competitive gaming organizations. In a multi-game set you almost always give pick advantage to the losing side. Examples of this are loser picking maps in StarCraft and winners being character locked in fighting games. This allows players to strategically counterpick what their opponent is doing and rewards more diverse strategy. Weapon bans exist for similar purpose: to prevent people from relying too heavily on single strategies/loadouts, opens up potential new strategies which would have hard counters otherwise, as well as helping keep the borderline "overpowered" weapons from seeing play every game.

I have many issues with the Cogs in both the competitive and organizational aspects, and frankly I do not feel it's accomplishing anything productive. I also find it surprising that you portray it as the end all be all after it's two weeks of existence ("competitive heart of this game", "can only be done by encouraging the cogs"), as if nothing else could ever exist which contributes to those ideals. It's kind of a silly opinion, if you ask me.

You two are the first to bring up substantial issue (I ran it by a few people before posting and they all seemed on-board), and all the criticisms you brought in your posts seem fraught with misunderstanding of what we're actually trying to do.

So yes, if you're afraid this will destroy the GOIO community, feel free to not participate.

EDIT: I apologize if my response comes off as harsh, but you seemed to attack the idea with such fervor I felt it appropriate to display a similar amount of enthusiasm.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Okay, step by step.

1. There's already a competitive league on weekends, it's called the Cogs.
b) If you really want another weekly competitive event, Jace Boojah has been trying to get one started for weeks: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,229.0.html

2. Why best of FIVE? 3-5 games are a lot. Last week's Cogs took an hour and twenty minutes and it was only three games.

3. You identify yourself as an organiser, but you're also an organiser of the Crows. You want people to send their loadouts to you before the match? And you want to pick the level?

4. Weapon bans? Why?

5. Why the deliberate loadout changing? Why is it so important what order people change their loadouts?

This seems like a really weird set up. Not having a set time and day is a disaster waiting to happen, Qwerty also wont be on call all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday every week to stream this.

1. Yes, Cogs is the current Official Ranked League of GOIO. Doesn't mean other organized matches that have the potential of finding intuitive systems for said Cogs are perma-banned.

2. Yea I thought best of 5 was high too, but its only 2 teams per day. I could see it going down to best of 3 if it becomes a regular thing though. The real goal of it, i think, is to see what happens when you dont throw all eggs into one match to decide a winner.

3. There is only 4 maps for a 2v2 setting. We honestly dont have much variety to go on with best of 3 and 5 matches like this. I highly doubt itll be the same map every match. The blind loadout thing is to, i think, stop people countering one another once we get into a match lobby. Then you have your chance to change around for the next match.

4. To vary strategies. Careful weapon bans with a good map selection can tip odds. Itll also bring out unconventional gameplay.

5. See 4. If you get to a point in competitive play where one layout always wins against the rest, thats a problem. Not saying its happened yet, but this system creates a way of out thinking opponents and snagging every advantage you can. It surely would make for interesting matches.


Call it and Unofficial Scrimmage if itll make you feel better, but dont put stomp on other's ideas because its different from the Official way. The same Cog teams will be able to sign up for this. Its not splitting anything. Teams with a bi-week (Like us now) would benefit from another organized way of getting a match in with higher level play.

[Skrimskraw]

this could be a good springboard for scrimmages outside the cogs.

lets say we have this once a week with 4 teams out of how many wants to join, and its unranked.

meaning if a team is low ranked in the cogs, they can still get a chance at playing a team higher ranked, because they want some training.

[Pickle]

Why are all the suggested alternatives to The Cogs at least as complicated and rigid in their rules as The Cogs, if not more so?

There's an assumption that any competitive match is only worthwhile if someone streams it, and this locks gameplay to a very few days and times convenient across time zones.  If a less formal alternative is required.. remove the restrictions.  Teams play at their mutual convenience, and if someone streams and records it that's a bonus rather than an essential element.

Simple options would be
- Ladder
- Winner stays on

[Shinkurex]

I think the restrictions here are for experienced players to come up with new strategies... What would happen if the ducks lost their long range capabilities. What if the pyra's current meta is nerfed by banning the light flak... If we did the simple options, the teams would just use what they're good at, and that would be no fun

[Urz]

There's an assumption that any competitive match is only worthwhile if someone streams it, and this locks gameplay to a very few days and times convenient across time zones.  If a less formal alternative is required.. remove the restrictions.  Teams play at their mutual convenience, and if someone streams and records it that's a bonus rather than an essential element.

An assumption by whom? Teams already regularly scrimmage against each other without assistance from me or anyone else, and if they would like to implement this ruleset or a variant thereof in those matches, they are completely free to. In fact, if they would like to ask me to referee for such a game, I'd be more than happy to help.

Competitive video content is incredibly important for the game as it provides persistent source of knowledge for both regulars and newer players who want to see what high-level play is all about. Putting the experienced teams out on display serves to raise the entire competitive metagame.

[Pickle]

An assumption by whom?

The Cogs is scheduled specifically around streaming, as is your suggestion (but I'll grant that you do admit a far greater flexibility for mutual scheduling), as are both other alternatives I've seen posted on other threads (who are both as prescriptive as Cogs).

A system that could respond to a "Team X is online, Team Y is online, let's scrimmage" freedom of scheduling would have the greatest benefit.  Although I appreciate that a proper clan system and supported GvG would make things a lot easier, if Muse found time in the development schedule to implement them.  The rigidity of the same night every week (without end with some contests - does The Cogs ever end?) can be a major block to even thinking about participation for some players (myself included).


We have the rigid rules and high level play catered for with The Cogs at the moment, could we not develop an idea that's more casual to run alongside it instead of more rigid rules and tightly scheduled play?  It could be a Wednesday night scrimmage format, but one that doesn't require strict attendance every week.. and ideally doesn't require clan teams (but that's going to take some thinking about).


(and Junker Fight Club would like to state for the record that it came first..  but we won't talk about it any further..)

[Urz]

We have the rigid rules and high level play catered for with The Cogs at the moment, could we not develop an idea that's more casual to run alongside it instead of more rigid rules and tightly scheduled play?  It could be a Wednesday night scrimmage format, but one that doesn't require strict attendance every week.. and ideally doesn't require clan teams (but that's going to take some thinking about).

I'm of the opinion that the Cogs is broken in many fundamental areas, making it unconducive for such high-level competition. That is evident in the fact that the ruleset of this series is so divergent from what they use. If you want to setup a more casual match however, nothing here is stopping you from doing that.

[Pickle]

I'll agree with you that The Cogs has enough fundamental flaws in it's mechanic that it's unlikely to get very far, but I'd still grant it enough rope to hang itself before considering a rival.. the corpse is still walking, never mind cold and buried yet.. ..

You proposal is a less a league or contest, and more a Marquis of Queensbury for scrimmage.. the more I read it, the more I think that if remove the scheduling aspect altogether it's got more appeal.  It isn't really so far off what I'd prefer to see.

I think I may have misjudged what you've written in your opening post and misread it as another competitive contest without end, and apologise for that.

But I suggest stripping the concept down to it's bare essentials for simplicity - say best of three/five and never the same map twice, winner can't change team, ship or crew loadout but does choose the next map.  Don't be too prescriptive on the map sequence, and that way the same rules will work for 2v2 or 3v3, and for DM or CP.

[Urz]

But I suggest stripping the concept down to it's bare essentials for simplicity - say best of three/five and never the same map twice, winner can't change team, ship or crew loadout but does choose the next map.  Don't be too prescriptive on the map sequence, and that way the same rules will work for 2v2 or 3v3, and for DM or CP.

At this point 2v2 DM is considered the standard for competition, and I feel keeping it focused on that is best, for the sake of keeping it "simple" among other reasons. That being said, the rules can be adjusted later on (or by someone else) to accommodate other game formats if the need arises.

One of the primary goals is to build a ruleset which can help fix some of the issues which exist in competitive play currently. It's part competition, part experiment.

[Pickle]

2v2 DM is the current standard.. but it would be nice to see competitive play on Anglean or Refinery as a greater test of strategy.  Those two CP games stand out as some of the finest in-game experiences when things go right, and the games that are most frustrating to new players that don't know/understand the rules.

[Coldcurse]

if i have enough crew i will aply for this