Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[RearAdmiralZill]

You pre-buff your first clip. Buff runs out, ant you can't buff again in the reload time of the gun.

That's not an ideal situation. That's a situation where the engineer timed his buff terribly. You only buff the gun before the killing clip.

Well give me the ideal please. I never use 3 engies, and the few times I tried weren't better, even with buffing.

[RomanKar]

The real point here is that I still get one specialized ammo that works best on the particular gun and the buff.

And also, especially on my junker, I get an always buffed main engine and an always buffed hull along with my buffed gat and mortars.  I know this is not the case on every ship, especially the pyri. 

I'd say buffgungineers are marginally better on a pyri, but a lot better on a junker.  Goldfish with most medium/heavy weapons benefits from the gunner.

[RearAdmiralZill]

On a junker it's even worse, but I run opposing broadsides while it seems to be the norm for people to use the same guns on each side, thus you can use the same ammo. I like the flexibility, but that too is preference.

Which is why this argument will probably never go away. Sure, you can make a ship build that only needs one ammo to be effective (though all guns can still be better with 2). I don't, and prefer varying layouts with which a gunner can make ideal.

[RomanKar]

In the case stated above, with different guns on the side guns, then I think a gunner is better than a gungineer.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Which is why I hate this argument. Too many people come into my games and call gunners COMPLETELY useless, which is not the case at all.

Each have pros and cons, with which we can argue all day about. I prefer the simplicity and flexibility of a gunner on my guns.

[RomanKar]

I have no problem running with a gunner on my ships.  The idea that a gunner is useless is unfounded.  However, I do think gunners could be buffed a bit.  Engis just have too much utility that you give up when you go gunner, and I don't think gunners get enough of a damage boost over engis to compensate for the loss of utility.

Now, all of this depends greatly on the load out of the ship, the ability of the crew and pilot, and what the other ship(s) you are running with is doing.  But on the whole, I think gungineers come out ahead of the gunner, but it isn't like the gunners are useless or a detriment.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I have no problem running with a gunner on my ships.  The idea that a gunner is useless is unfounded.  However, I do think gunners could be buffed a bit.  Engis just have too much utility that you give up when you go gunner, and I don't think gunners get enough of a damage boost over engis to compensate for the loss of utility.

Now, all of this depends greatly on the load out of the ship, the ability of the crew and pilot, and what the other ship(s) you are running with is doing.  But on the whole, I think gungineers come out ahead of the gunner, but it isn't like the gunners are useless or a detriment.

And this is why we will always disagree, because I see no need to buff gunners, as they perform their task better than an engineer playing gunner. The game is too fluid to accurately talk ideal situations because, even that ideal situation evolves, which is why I prefer the fluid ammo selections.

I'm not saying this is all the ammo we will ever need and that more can't come out, or that these current ones can't change, but I find the utility of 3 ammo types more useful to my dedicated gunner than more repair.

[RomanKar]

Remember, it's not just repair, the real item that puts the Engineer slightly above the gunner is the buff hammer, IMO.

[RearAdmiralZill]

In all cases or just some?

[RomanKar]

In all cases or just some?

In my case, on my junker and pyri, the buff hammer is the item that pushed me and my crew to preferring buff-gungineers to gunners.

 

[Zenark]

The gunner can adapt to different situations. Say on a Gatling, he can use heavy while the target is far away, then switch to Greased when a ship is up close, THEN switch to Incendiary whenever the need arises.

I think a Gunner works best when he needs to use more than one type of gun or is fighting different types of ships that require a different strategy .

[N-Sunderland]

The gunner can adapt to different situations. Say on a Gatling, he can use heavy while the target is far away, then switch to Greased when a ship is up close, THEN switch to Incendiary whenever the need arises. 

That's the beauty of buffing. You don't even need to adapt. Whereas the boost from greased can only happen once you're close up, the buff works as long as you're in range. Same story as with the flak. Also, I'm pretty certain that buffing gives a higher DPS increase than greased (not to mention that it's more accurate because of heavy clip).

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well in his example, his gatling can be used at max range, then increase dps when closer, and then set fires when he feels like it.

To be fair too, the gatling example is probably one of the best for buff vs ammo.

Don't you have to also throw repair in with buffing too, thus slowing your buff speed?

[Zenark]

Consider the Lumberjack and Heavy Flak. Say an engineer brings Lesmok rounds, if the enemy gets close, those rounds will hinder the guns effectiveness, where a Gunner could switch to something that lowers it's projectile speed so the round is in the air longer and had more time to arm it's secondary effect. Sure the Incendiary rounds don't have the -50% anymore, but it's still better than nothing.

[N-Sunderland]

Oh sure, I agree 100% that a gunner is necessary on a heavy gun. I made that clear a few posts ago. This discussion is more about light guns.