Fellow Ex-Gunners Of Icarus Lend Me Your Ears!

[GeoRmr]

There's 2 types of items we use. Wieldable items, and Icon items.


#1. Wieldable items - These are items that you can actually hold to help your team with (Examples: Spyglass, Rangefinder, Spanner, Rubber Mallet, etc)

#2. Icon items - These are items that are never seen, and only you can use them while mounting a specific object like a gun or the helm. (Examples: Kerosene, Moonshine, Greased rounds, Burst rounds, etc)



The Pilot utility belt contains both iconic items for his specific job, and wieldable items that other classes can use.
The Gunner utility belt contains iconic items for his specific job, but no wieldable items that other classes can use.
The Engineer utility belt contains wieldable items that other classes can use, but no iconic items specifically for himself to use.


The gunner needs some wieldable items to make himself more useful, as he only really needs 2 ammo slots 90% of the time, and the engineer could possibly use some iconic items to boost engines possibly.

This is the reason muse hasn't already done this - giving the gunner wield-able items "breaks the design paradigm" of gunners only having iconic items. One of the devs said this in one of the many clones of this thread a few months back.

[The Sky Wolf]

I wasn't playing this game a few months back, I just came back from a year long break. Now I know currently their paradigm is set towards the Pilot having both item types, and then the Gunner & Engineer each having one item type and being total opposites. It's all very well thought out, but still I believe it could be engineered a little bit better to help the gunner role become just a tad more useful than he is right now.

 I believe adding 1 new wieldable item for the gunner, and 1 new iconic item for the engineer would compliment both classes and balance the roles a little more while still keeping the paradigm in place... Because dat Gungineer... is taking that gunner's place more and more.

[BlackenedPies]

I don't think wieldable vs iconic item types is the way to look at it. All items are wieldable in the appropriate medium (besides spyglass and range finder). Engineer items work in the player medium, gunner items work in the gun medium, and pilot items work in the helm medium. Spyglass and range finder are the only exceptions.

Each class has 3 of their own items and 1 of the other class items. All items are usable in the appropriate medium. None are purely iconic. The thing is that gunner items are relatively less useful on most guns when compared to engineer and pilot items. As pilot, if I only need one pilot item then I'll be a spanner mallet buff engi (I regularly do this on spire).

Gunners have a place: mine and sometimes lumber. They're balanced when compared to main engineers because they are marginally better at shooting "main" guns (gat carro hwatcha etc). They're balanced compared to buff engineers because those require much higher skill. Beginners start off as gunners then they graduate their responsibilities. Gunners have a place: special guns and replacement of main engineers. Their role doesn't need to be expanded to compete with the higher skill of buff engi. Being a gunner is lazy.

[Koali]

Being a Gunner is lazy.

That's mean.

[Carn]

seriously dude, its a matter of taste. Not everyone wants to be the guy having to fix things. And it makes sense to have a crew member dedicated to doing damage, versus 3 only occasionally doing damage

[BlackenedPies]

Everyone has to fix things. At least 2 of the 3 crew will shoot guns (besides possibly blender/lumber fish). No matter what you will have a dedicated gunner, but they may not be the niche gunner class.

Being more effective than a gunner requires a buff engineer. This requires much higher skill. While a gunner has 2 jobs (wrench and spyglass), a buff engi has 4 jobs. The added complexity requires added skill. I find being an engineer a lot more fun because it's more complex and efficient.

Being an inefficient liability isn't fun. I say gunners are lazy because having a simple job at the cost of being a major liability is categorically lazy. Choosing to be an inefficient liability over an efficient asset is lazy.

[Carn]

Again, there is a difference in taste. As a gunner, I've shot down triple engie crew that were doing exactly as you've said. I get everyone has to repair in certain situations. Its a rather different kind of efficiency. Someone who prefers an efficient kill, over someone who prefers to zip around. I'm not saying engineering isn't fun, it is in its own way, but i find it a tad more stressful. There's also plenty of people who are excellent engineers, and horrible gunners, and vice versa. There are far more guns then the mine launcher and lumberjack that have several ammo types that they are suited for. The heavy flak, the hades, the mercury to name a few. I've used multiple ammo types in each of them, each effectively.

[BlackenedPies]

Being the main gungineer is the same job as gunner but offers a huge increase in both offensive and defensive power. It requires more responsibilities which helps you increase skill. I hope that everyone wants practice to improve skill. That's one of the two main reasons people play games.

Efficient gungineers outperform gunners on all other guns including h flak, hades, and merc. Buffed regular ammo is overall better than any other ammo type in terms of dps. Gungineers have significantly better repair power and can buff more components to give your ship a vital advantage

A gunner may outperform an inefficient buff engi, but can't outperform an efficient one. The only possible exceptions are mine and lumber, but even then the advantage may go to the buffs. Again, I think gunners should have 2 engi tool slots because they are currently a very niche roll.

[Carn]

Do you honestly think dps is the only reason we bring various ammos? I've used lesmok and charged rounds in the merc, to great effect. There's only 4 guns the require no skill in the game, the gat, and the carronades, and the flamer. As for the heavy flak, lesmok and loch are both used. There isn't a point in buffing a loch shot from a heavy flak, because that will kill any ship stripped from armor except the galleon. And i dont believe that buffing it will one shot a galleon. As for the artemis, i've used lesmok and busrt rounds, with lesmok a artemis can compete with merc range, assuming the merc isn't using lesmok. The flamer can use greased, lesmok, and burst effectively at various ranges. And no matter what you say, there will always be people who prefer to be a gunner then a engie. It won't matter how sound your logic is, people do not run on logic alone.

I will agree that the gunner should possibly get another tool slot, give a gunner a pipe wrench and a buff hammer, then they can start pumping out some serious damage. But I do not believe muse will do this, as it would break the balance.

[GeoRmr]

ITT: Blackened Pies is bored of running around in circles chem-spraying  and is jealous of the gunner shooting stuff and having fun.

gunner envy much

[BlackenedPies]

Lesmok shouldn't be used on merc. Damage can be repaired faster than it's dealt with the exception of medium guns and engines. The merc has more than enough range and accuracy (2250m). Using lesmok encourages you not to practice. If you really need lesmok then might as well be spanner mallet buff lesmok because then you can actually deal damage faster than it's repaired.

Lesmok isn't necessary on the heavy flak for the same reason. If you really plan on using a lot of lesmok then you're much better off being spanner mallet buff lesmok. If it gets damaged then you're screwed with only a wrench to repair. Gunners don't belong on artemis and it's not a main gun. The flamer is a special case and yes gunners are useful on it. I don't count the flame as a real weapon.

@Geo 
My crew work instead of standing around being useless. During combat gungineers and gunners do the same thing except gungineers have extra responsibilities during reload. It also discourages the bad habit that gunners have of sitting on guns. The only thing worse than sitting on a reload is not spotting- which is often the consequence of sitting on the gun. Everyone being engineers make them more equal: which they are except when one of them is privileged to be lazy. Being gunner encourages bad engineering habits.

[GeoRmr]

Make'm work harder then,  my crew can do that shit by themselves while I stand around being useless

stay jelly

[GeoRmr]

Meanwhile the engineers are busy repairing...

[Carn]

I dont use lesmok on those guns because it makes it easier, i get extra range out of it. And even if their engies can repair it faster, it still keeps them busy and not shooting at me. And again, some people get no pleasure out of engineering. There are plenty of guns whose reload time does not allow to go and fix something, because the gunner needs to make sure he has the right ammo loaded. The hwacha is a very good gun for engies, because of its long reload. The gatling however, has a relatively quick one, therefore not allowing an effective fix, and assuring the proper ammo is loaded. Personally I'd rather have a gunner who can focus on his job, then a gungineer who has the extra responsibilities and therefore extra distractions. And there are plenty of scrub engies who just stand around and don't fix things, just like the scrub gunners who can't learn how to lead a shot in 3 dimensions

[BlackenedPies]

All guns have a long enough reload to chem, buff, and repair. Gunners often sit on guns while they reload which is a huge risk if they don't notice it's damaged. Everyone needs to get off guns every reload no matter what. This is an essential habit. Being a gungineer builds good habits while being a gunner builds bad habits.

Everyone likes to shoot guns and many would like the turn on the main gun. Being solely a gunner makes players feel overly privileged (see above). With all engineers it's easy to swap around positions to give everyone turns if they want. This builds useful skills and a better environment for all.

Gunners are fine for scrubs. Tougher fights require the transition from second main engineers to buff engineers and gunners to gungineers. It's the graduation of responsibility that's present in games that grow in difficulty.