Author Topic: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer  (Read 4758 times)

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 06:48:59 pm »
The trick that in my eyes would make this superior to manually stabilizing your ship would be the reduced damage taken to balloon and guns. Your light guns would no longer be one shot with an Artemis (the Mercury could still probably do the trick with a direct hit), and your balloon wouldn't be as vulnerable.

That's a bad idea.
First of all, I think there's some kind of logic behind every aspect of other tools, why is it exactly that parts are damaged etc. Having an anchor, or any kind of ship stabilizer shouldn't anyhow affect the durability of ship parts IMO.
But that's only about my sticking to some sort of in-game logic in the mechanics, the real problem is the damage reduction from a pilot's tool would make it ridiculously beneficial not just for sniping ships, but for every single ship in the game, especially for Pyramidion.

Overall I like the idea of the tool itself, it would be a real nice option for the sniping ships to keep your ship stable. But providing you with additional damage reduction from enemy fire is another thing that I don't see working well.

I feel that there should be at least some added benefit than just stabilizing the ship to make the tool worth sacrificing a piloting tool slot for. Richard's idea about severely reduced recoil seemed in my eyes very hard to balance properly as well. Do you think there could be an in your eyes both efficient and balanced 3rd option?

Offline Deltajugg

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 07:35:29 pm »
I feel that there should be at least some added benefit than just stabilizing the ship to make the tool worth sacrificing a piloting tool slot for. Richard's idea about severely reduced recoil seemed in my eyes very hard to balance properly as well. Do you think there could be an in your eyes both efficient and balanced 3rd option?

Well, it would be quite funny to use the anchor to kill the ships below you xD

Assuming it would be an anchor, a "knockback" reduction, from all the rams and mines, would be in place, basically so the enemy ship that rammed you would hit you like a wall, bouncing off to the side, while your ship stays more or less in one place. This of course could also help other ships than sniping ones, but not to the extent of it becoming new meta.

I think this tool could go well with the idea behind it being an extreme version of Impact bumpers, like Moonshine for Kerosene, making the ship completely immobile for a few seconds, maybe even damaging engines and armor for trying to use engines during the time, but providing ship stabilization, reduced impact damage and reduced impact knockback. Reduced impact damage doesn't exactly fit the idea behind an anchor, but, as I believe it has been said in Frozen, "it doesn't have to be an anchor".

The thing about balancing the tool is to make it useful for the ships that prefer fighting from a distance with the stabilization, but not make it too useful for close range, charging ships. I think the best way to do it is to provide benefits for the tool of such kind that give no bonuses for a ship that intends to use it for close range encounters, but are useful for the crew of the ship being attacked in close range. It's kinda tricky to be honest, I'm not even 100% sure about my own idea, but I know that as much as my idea may not be the best solution, damage reduction from enemy fire is even further from it.

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 08:19:33 pm »
Alright, summing up some of the ideas from this thread to see what kind of stuff we've been talking about. Please do tell if I've missed anything. Also feel free to keep adding suggestions, this is just an update.

Name ideas: Stabilizer, gyroscope, anchor

General idea: A piloting tool that you can use to have the ship automatically stabilize itself using the engine and the insert/release gas to the balloon mechanics. After the ship has stopped moving, the downside of the stabilizer is that you effectively cannot move any more.

Target audience: Sniper ships and other ships that benefit from relocating and then trying to stabilize the ship asap. Newbie-friendly too, in the sense that it could be an "auto-pilot" that executes ship stabilization perfectly using the throttle and the balloon controls.

Benefits of using the tool: Stabilizes the ship quickly. Gives long range ships an option to try to get the enemy in their arcs as quickly as possible and then stabilize the ship for their gunners.

Various possible side benefits that have been suggested: Reduces the recoil of the guns, similar to a Heavy Clip but not as effectively. A proposed reduction of 50-75% in recoil. Reduction of damage taken to balloon and weapons, but not the hull or the engines. Perhaps only a reduction from taken shatter and flechette damage to make this feature slightly less devastating? A reduction in impact damage was also suggested. This should not be too great, however, so that the impact bumpers are not rendered obsolete.

More or less logical drawbacks of using the tool: Cannot maneuver the ship properly. Due to actively combating increase in momentum, there would be a for example +1000% vertical drag and 500% upwards horizontal drag. Upwards drag so this wouldn't render the drogue chute useless. Cannot be used effectively at close range as you are unable to keep the enemy in your arc or maneuver properly.

Possible additional drawbacks: Damage taken by the hull when the tool is active and the ship is moving / being moved. Damage to balloon and engines was also proposed, if the ship was in motion while the stabilizator was online. To prevent abuse, you could have an internal cooldown to toggling off the mechanic, much like with hydrogen or impact bumpers. Flip the switch on and off, and the ship will spend 5 or so seconds in "stabilization mode", with all the benefits and drawbacks.

Things to consider: This would replace one of the piloting tools for a long range ship with a tool that loses most if not all its benefits at close range. Currently the sniper ships can choose from piloting tools that may benefit them both at long and close ranges. This could be used similarly to moonshine to avoid being knocked off arc when being rammed, but due to the internal cooldown you couldn't "abuse" it as you would be unable to turn to face the enemy that just rammed you in case he wasn't already in your arc.

The tool could possibly stabilize the ship even more quickly if the pilot had kero/moonshine and drogue chute/hydrogen as his other piloting tools. If you didn't need them, and the tool had only the increased horizontal and upwards vertical drags, it could be a viable replacement for kerosene/moonshine on sniper ships and a counter-ramming tool, however the pilot would lose an escape tool if he opted to replace kero/moonshine with this. If you have ever tried to manually stabilize a long-range Mobula without alternate fuel tools after turning it for a few seconds with Phoenix Claw, you know what I'm talking about when I say that long-range captains can greatly benefit from some kind of reduced horizontal drag.

In conclusion: This tool would have the potential of becoming the "go-to" tool for long range ships, much like Kerosene/Moonshine and Phoenix Claw already are for brawling builds. It needs to be efficient enough to warrant a piloting tool slot, but also not too powerful for it to be very useful outside select sniper scenarios.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 02:25:17 pm by Schwerbelastung »

Offline macmacnick

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 11:05:40 pm »
Schwer, the suggestion on hull damage was for when the ship is turning with the tool being active.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2014, 11:58:38 pm »
I already use Moonshine to stop a swing, or stabilize the speed by looking at the flags.

An option like this would be great.
I also think combining this with maybe kyrosine could proove for a better "Stop and go backwards as fast as possible immidiatly" situation.

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2014, 12:46:07 am »
Schwer, the suggestion on hull damage was for when the ship is turning with the tool being active.

Thanks, I'll try to get that fixed by a mod at some point. I hate leaving small inaccuracies (that I know of) behind  :P

Offline Dementio

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2014, 10:34:20 am »
Have you considered harpoons?

If I had a Spire that has a harpoon on it it would instantly turn the spire out of arcs. Also it moves my ship towards the enemy which I actually don't want to happen.
This tool could allow me to use a harpoon on any ship and on any gun slot without having my ship turn against my will and without my ship getting pulled towards the enemy. I could actually reer the enemy in or even have them get stuck on the piece of cover that they were trying to get behind.

I see much more use for this tool when combined with a harpoon, when fighting mines or even combined with impact bumbers and less long range use.

Also, what would happen if everything on your ship is disabled? Does it still damage your engines/balloon/armor if you don't have these things anymore? Would it do perma hull damage? Or would the tool just not work if the thing that is to be damages is already destroyed? I think it would be rather useful to have a tool that can stop you from moving while your engines are down, like drouge chute slows your drop while your balloon is down.
Does it really have to damage anything? Why not leave it at bringing your ship to a deadstop no matter what you do while the tool is activated?
If you want to stop the tool from being abused why not leave it active for X seconds after deactivation or even ave the accelaration of everything be incredibly decreased and increase it by X% over a period of Y seconds until it's back to normal? Making it possible to move your ship again, but with the decreased accelartion your enemy can still gain the upper hand.

However, I do not see why the abuse of this tool would be severe enough to punish it in general. It should not reduce the damage you take or reduce recoil, which has nothing to do with the ship at all, making this tool less realistic than the entire game. It should just stabilize the ship and stop it from moving entirely.
The punishment already is when you have to give up a pilot tool. If you combine it with impact bumbers to counter rams entirely you have to give up 2 slots already leaving you only 1 more slot for more engine power or vertical evasion.


And Schwer: Having the tool interact with the throttle and stuff might confuse the player at times if they didn't read the description correctly. Causing more confusion than it was supposed to fix. Another possibility might be that the player is looking away while activating this tool, making it's interaction kinda pointless.

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2014, 10:40:30 am »
Have you considered harpoons?

If I had a Spire that has a harpoon on it it would instantly turn the spire out of arcs. Also it moves my ship towards the enemy which I actually don't want to happen.
This tool could allow me to use a harpoon on any ship and on any gun slot without having my ship turn against my will and without my ship getting pulled towards the enemy. I could actually reer the enemy in or even have them get stuck on the piece of cover that they were trying to get behind.

I see much more use for this tool when combined with a harpoon, when fighting mines or even combined with impact bumbers and less long range use.

Also, what would happen if everything on your ship is disabled? Does it still damage your engines/balloon/armor if you don't have these things anymore? Would it do perma hull damage? Or would the tool just not work if the thing that is to be damages is already destroyed? I think it would be rather useful to have a tool that can stop you from moving while your engines are down, like drouge chute slows your drop while your balloon is down.
Does it really have to damage anything? Why not leave it at bringing your ship to a deadstop no matter what you do while the tool is activated?
If you want to stop the tool from being abused why not leave it active for X seconds after deactivation or even ave the accelaration of everything be incredibly decreased and increase it by X% over a period of Y seconds until it's back to normal? Making it possible to move your ship again, but with the decreased accelartion your enemy can still gain the upper hand.

However, I do not see why the abuse of this tool would be severe enough to punish it in general. It should not reduce the damage you take or reduce recoil, which has nothing to do with the ship at all, making this tool less realistic than the entire game. It should just stabilize the ship and stop it from moving entirely.
The punishment already is when you have to give up a pilot tool. If you combine it with impact bumbers to counter rams entirely you have to give up 2 slots already leaving you only 1 more slot for more engine power or vertical evasion.


And Schwer: Having the tool interact with the throttle and stuff might confuse the player at times if they didn't read the description correctly. Causing more confusion than it was supposed to fix. Another possibility might be that the player is looking away while activating this tool, making it's interaction kinda pointless.

Thanks for the input. I agree that it could be very useful with harpoons, and to a certain extent also that it could be confusing if a new player didn't read the description.

However, it would be cool to let new people know somehow that the functionality that this tool offers can be achieved through other means. It's not crucial, but it would be kind of a "hidden tutorial" as ship stabilization is not something all new players consider or are very good at.

I also think that I suggested the tool to stay on a few seconds after deactivation so you could not just click it and forget it, much like you can when stabilizing the ship using moonshine. There would be a drawback which would limit your ability to move the ship immediately after trying to stabilize it.

My initial idea suggested that this tool would "combat" any increase in momentum. This would effectively mean that it would be theoretically possible to move the ship, but the movements would be very slow and potentially also damage your ship. You also bring up a good point about whether this tool would work when the engines are destroyed - I think it wouldn't be overpowered to have it work like that. It would also give more reasons on why to pick it over some other tools without (in my eyes) making it too powerful.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2014, 01:12:36 pm »
OK, so here are my final thoughts on the idea. All numbers are guestimates subject to testing.


Mechanics:

Ship engages on board gyroscopes to stop turning motions.

Ship also fires a harpoon-like anchor straight down, stopping horizontal and vertical motion.

Dampers activate on all guns.


Benefits:

Ship stops all motion almost instantly, even if engines are broken. Only tool that can stop sideways drift.

Guns get reduced recoil**. 50% reduction.

Possible buff to projectile velocity. 10% or so?

Ship will not move when hitting or being hit by a harpoon. Sort of an 'anti-harpoon'/buff tool.

Ship will not move when impacted, either by mines or other ships.


Downsides:

Tool lasts for a time after deactivated as anchor is raised and gyro is spun down.

Reduces turning engine power by 90%. Using engines will damage armor with impact damage due to gyroscopic torsion.

Ship can no longer rise, due to the anchor. Can descend?

Anchor leaves a visible rope connecting your ship to the ground. Enemy ships can easily see when you have this tool activated.

Guns get reduced recoil, but also suffer from the dampening by having severely reduced rotation speed. Similar to lochnagar. At least 50% reduction. Also slows rate of fire by 10%.

10% increased projectile velocity increases arming range, making it more risky at close range.

**Guns get 10% increased recoil (from base) if you touch any helm controls (steering and balloon, not tools). If you have ever tried to move a spinning gyroscope, you will understand why.

All impact damage to your ship is increased by 10%.

Activating the tool while touching any solid object would basically be suicide.


Summery:

I feel that with testing and balancing, these mechanics would make a well-rounded, useful-yet-risky tool that would have multiple uses at all but short range. Clever pilots will likely find uses even at short range. The risks are that if the enemy knows you are using it, they can quickly adjust tactics. In exchange for premium accuracy, you give up all mobility and slightly lower DPS. This leaves your ship completely open to surprise flanks and high speed frontal charges.

Heavy clip would be very useful still when using this, as you would get pinpoint accuracy at a 10% further range. Or it could be used with lesmok for a greatly increased range and large increase in accuracy.

As far as Spires being overpowered with this, the lack of turning on the ship as well as guns makes the ship extremely vulnerable to strafing attacks.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:15:38 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2014, 03:59:43 pm »
Are you guys forgetting that moonshine pretty much allready does all of what you guys are stating?
I mean the stats where the guns get a buff because of a tool is... maybe too much but would be cool to see a tool that actualy helps out guns.

For the harpoon... the only thing moonshine does not prevent is sidewise drifting but it does help not loosing control.


I would still like this tool however. Its just that right now it needs to simply be a Stabiliser that does not hurt the engines. That way, moonshine is something with heavy drawbacks.

Offline Schwerbelastung

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2014, 05:47:10 pm »
Are you guys forgetting that moonshine pretty much allready does all of what you guys are stating?
I mean the stats where the guns get a buff because of a tool is... maybe too much but would be cool to see a tool that actualy helps out guns.

For the harpoon... the only thing moonshine does not prevent is sidewise drifting but it does help not loosing control.


I would still like this tool however. Its just that right now it needs to simply be a Stabiliser that does not hurt the engines. That way, moonshine is something with heavy drawbacks.

I do believe that it has been mentioned several times that the ship stabilization effect can be gotten through the use of kerosene/moonshine, chute vent, and hydrogen. However, with some of the suggestions in this thread, this tool could prove to be a viable option, especially to long range ships.

Because all the tools have some kind of drawbacks, I think it would only be logical to have some drawbacks for the ship stabilizer too. Also, as the stabilization effect could be reached with other tools, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to give the tool some other benefits as well in addition to just dramatically reducing momentum. What we are trying to do in this thread is get an idea on how to balance the benefits with the drawbacks, so the tool will neither be under- or overpowered. :)

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: A new piloting tool: Ship Stabilizer
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2014, 07:20:59 pm »
I understand, it just feels like its going overboard D:

If you look at the other tools, they have simple stats that enhance exactly what they want. And takes away what they dont need.
Stuff like the impact bumpers and the Drogue chute seem underpowered but does very good against those specific conditions.
A spire with Impact Bumpers survives 50% of pyra rams. Not to mention Drogue and Bumpers togheter proove for a hard to kill baloon popped ship.

So having a simple something of a tool that enhances the ship in a prefered way (In this case for snipers to be able to fire instantly after movement or near instant and stable as possible) that is making the ship stand at a stand still is very nice. Simple and quick.


Here is my "Gameplay design" for the stats and how it works for ships.


When the tool is active is slowly stabilizes the ship from full speed. Max time is 3 seconds until full stop from full speed.
While the tool is active the ship is at a standstill. Unaffected by drifting, bopping or pushing. (Very little effect but enough to almost supress small to medium effects, while larger effects like a harpoon or a ram moves the ship little enough)

But as a downgrade. Add in impact damage Taken 25%+ just to make up for a ship not being able to get thrown off arcs.
Ships like the galleon can afford this in close range, and maybe junkers. But for other ships, this drawback is going to kill them if used uncorrectly.

While the tool is active, the engines going forward, or turning wont affect the ship at all (Or very little as i mentioned).
However, here is the second drawback.

The tool can be activated and deactivated by the pilot at will but he has to keep it ACTIVE at all times if you want to keep that stabilization.
This makes sniper ships 3 man gunned if the pilot is hugging the wheel with the tool active.
With it you then can also use it more for close range purposes and in reaction to not get hit when you turn it off.

With it, the pilot can get impact bumpers along with this tool to not get thrown out of arc and be rammed as if he got rammed without impact bumpers.
Like i said, affordable on galleons, and maybe junkers. Combine it with drogue chute also, and you have an enhanced drogue chute but the pilot is forced to hug the wheel.
(I mean, would be nice if the ship would fall a bit slower from using the tool but not as powerfull as drogue chute. So a combination would be great)
Another drawback to all of this is the slot for it.

So... We have a ship stabilizing tool that can be used to save one self and quickly correct the ship from turning for the guns sake.
We also gave it a good combo with either drogue chute or Impact bumpers.
Have keroseen and Stabiliser, you then have a selective moonshine. Where you sacrifice a slot, but can choose both not as damaging speed, with an easy to control without damage stabilization.
But it must be actively used. In most cases, im seeing this being used very bursty just to stablize the ship for the first few seconds and then proceed.
For proactive uses, its versus baloon popping and ramming with a combination (If you choose) with impact bumpers or Drogue chute.

etc etc.



TL;DR
Stabiliser:
Stabilizes the ship, making it almost unnaffected by wind and ram or other impairments that forcfully move your ship.
Slows the ship down almost into a full stop in all directions. When the baloon is down, descent is also slower.
Active on selection. 25%+ to impact damage.

Very good versus harpoons, and good for quick stabilisation of snipers and a mini moonshine if combined with kyrosine, hyper drogue chute if combined with drogue chute, drawback neglected if combined with Impact bumpers. But as a choice, takes up a slot, and needs to be actively selected if you want to keep the effect running.