Point the Goldfish's guns forward

[JaegerDelta]

There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.

you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.

If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on  your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)

by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons.  yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.

if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.

[Velvet]

in what universe is one light weapon viable?

a competent crew armed with even one merc or art.

From the same post you claim to be disabled and made useless by a single light weapon. Does the goldfish need some love? Probably. But is it this useless floating target that you seem to see it as? Certainly not.
I guess my concern is that if every ship and every gun can be viably used in competitive play (as things currently stand), then what happens when you buff something? Sure, the only instances of some things working are when one of the best players is using it, but how much is that player going to wreck the scene if you buff them?
Maybe that is the wrong outlook to have in a game with a delicate balance between making casual and competitive fun. But it is the feeling I have when people talk about buffing squid arcs, goldfish arcs, carronades, and flamers. They are all viable right now if just a little bit more risky.

@Velvet, I can post some videos... OVW and the Ducks scrim every Wednesday night. Alistair Silas has been bringing his goldfish pretty successfully, though he has limited internet and hasn't been able to participate in the more public events.

If you could post any videos that would be very helpful, thank you. As it is it's difficult for me to accept that all of the ships are competitively viable as all my experience suggests otherwise and that it's quite a narrow set of weapons and ships that are used to effect in competitive play. Maybe I might learn something new.

There are barely any situations where it's good call to turn in the side guns if the front gun isn't a hwacha.

you dont turn in the side guns. the side guns gain arc incidentally as you move and twist. you are not playing for high dps in a goldfish you dont need to be hitting every time. you just need to hit at the right time. when it is of most value to your team.

If you are flying a goldfish you must fly unexpectedly aggressively and aggressively defensive. with the speed of a goldfish you can weave in get some hits and get out, not easily mind you, the engineers need to be up to snuff. you can also fly in such a way that you target the ships targeting your allies. you can remove enemies from arc on  your allies and you can just straight up remove the damage sources. giving your ally time to repair and kill the threat. (this all assumes you are using the hwatcha or carronade which are the most popular weapons on the goldfish, if you are going for a damage goldfish with the flak or lumber your gunner better be good because you have to be constantly changing target to what ever ship is the biggest threat/easiest pickings.)

by removing damage sources from your allies and thus preventing damage that was going to be taken, you are essentially healing your allies, in a round-a-bout way. the goldfish functions much like the cleric in 4th edition dungeons and dragons.  yes you are supporting your allies but you are doing it by beating the fuck out of the most opportune enemy. and it becomes more and more useful the more allies you have.

The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.

if you turn the gun arcs forward you remove its capability to be hitting almost no matter what direction the ship is facing and moving, thus making it boring.

I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.

[Spud Nick]

Here is a scrim between GlowWater Thralls and Sacrilege.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykyq5wja1vk

[JaegerDelta]

The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.

The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.

I do not see how highly varied gun angles are necessary when, as has already been discussed at length, the Goldfish is fantastically manoeuvrable and unlike a Mobula or Galleon doesn't need a gun arc in every direction to quickly attack enemies on any side.

also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down

[Velvet]

The Artemis has the final say in disable. Triple art effectively used has far greater range and precision as well as more consistent, maintained disable and a lesser vulnerability to return fire than a Hwacha. Both the Hellhound and Manticore are (at least alone, and in my opinion) highly ineffective against the combination of gat mortar and art disable that you'll experience trying to get close to most high level teams.

The artemis only has the "final say" if you build this situation in such a way that soft cover does not matter and you are flying in a straight line. as it is in reality every single map has enough soft cover, if used to the fullest, a goldfish can move in close unseen. and by flying in a non-linear fashion you can dodge a great many artemis shots while you are far away. no gun is unbeatable. and if it is the question should be how to change that gun, not to design the game around imbalance.

There plenty of spots on maps that make an approach to brawling range extremely risky and difficult. And the Goldfish gets a very slow kill with only 1 gun firing at a time so you will still also suffer greatly from art or even gat disable at brawl range.

I don't feel the Artemis is hugely OP, as it is there is a lot of balance in sniping between mercs, artemis and hades and brawling teams have engaged teams centred around art builds to great effect. The fact that one weak ship is highly vulnerable to the predominant tactics makes me inclined to think the ship should be buffed rather than the tactics nerfed.

also the multiple gun arcs matter because you can fire then protect your heavy weapon by turning, shielding it with your ship, and still being able to put out some damage to support your ally. if you put the focus more towards frontal attacking, then it is actually more vulnerable to being locked down

quick rebuild times of light guns and a tripled ability to return fire should make that a non-issue. I find it hard to see how this change could actually make the Goldfish weaker, even if it invalidates and changes certain tactics.

[SirNotlag]

I think both sides on this issue might be viewing the other as a bit too extreme.
While I fall under the group that feels the goldfishes guns are fine the way they are and that it would be ridiculous to have all 3 guns pointed forward, I UNDERSTAND that is not what the other side is saying, and I can see where they are coming from.

Tilting the goldfishes side guns forward a mere 15 or 10 degrees would actually make it easier to harass ships with both the light gun and heavy gun on the goldfish without loosing  to much of its side arcs. And this stops the problem of dual gat hwatcha as Gatling guns would not be able to shoot forward with such a small change, but it makes it easier for the goldfish to fire the hwatcha then turn to get a Gatling gun in arc.

Certain weapons with better arcs like the flamer carousel rockets and Artemis would now have overlapping arcs with the front gun giving the goldfish a higher dps and making it a bit more suitable for 1 vs 1.

Again I am fine with the way the goldfish currently is but i would not be complaining about any buffs it receives as long as it keeps the same current feel.

[Captain Smollett]

Double artemis hwacha goldfish.

[-Mad Maverick-]

weird that allistair seems to agree the goldie needs help

[Velvet]

weird that allistair seems to agree the goldie needs help

two different Alistairs.

Double artemis hwacha goldfish.

that would hurt. But without the armour strip of a hades and outranged by triple art, and not forgetting that the hwacha can be so easily disabled, I don't think it would be obscenely powerful in a sniping fight. Might be a slight issue in brawling though.
Remember though that as soon as the Goldfish starts taking fire both arts quickly drop out the fight as permanent hulltanking becomes necessary and the engines & balloon are a nice long way from the guns. This fish would also suffer a lot from fire weapons because there's no natural opportunity for the engineers to go on chemspray runs, so presumably they'd have to use extinguishers and interrupt firing to deal with fire issues. (or an engineer captain.. that could be fun)

[Skrimskraw]

let me ask you guys this.

how do you set up your team?

some ships works incredible together, and some doesnt. a junker/pyra combo have a disadvantage in being agressive and chasing.

the goldfish has a front gun that it lives off. it works incredible on teams that use advanced tactics. sneaking in, splitting up and flanking is where this ship is incredible. When you start to park your goldfish like a galleon, thats when the enemy team is just going to snipe out your gun constantly.

Its a incredible mobile ship and very very durable as a short time tank. you shouldnt play the goldfish as you would other ships, you need to use perfect altitude positioning and staying clear of open spaces, where you can get hammered down.

also making the goldfish able to trifecta is game breaking lol. thats basicly a spire with the most insane mobility.

[Captain Smollett]

The hull is directly next to the right gun. It would hardly ever need to stop shooting, the pilot could easily take chem spray as a tool and the left gun would never stop shooting.

The goldfish is so agile it could fight at any range it wanted, easily outclassing every ship in the game with greater firepower other than the port side of a Galleon and out fly anything other than a squid (which probably wouldn't be an issue with 3 disabling guns and the ability to ram).

Double Artemis hwacha is more than enough DPs to break through armor and kill while the opponent is completely disabled.

I don't think th there's a way I could be convinced a trifecta goldfish would be balanced.  If not for the ease in removing their front gun and keeping it down, the Goldie would be one of the best ships in the game. If a blender fish arrives unannounced, the fight is over in the goldfishes favor since no escape is possible.

I think people are under valuing the benefit of maneuverability paired with the ability to deny thayvof your opponent.

[redria]

Welp, Leto is not good at uploading our scrims to youtube. And for whatever reason his twitch page loses past broadcasts after about 5 days. So I only have one video.
http://www.twitch.tv/therobanddanshow/b/516547411
The first game (about 40 minutes in or so) has a squid, the second game (about 70 minutes in or so if I recall) has a goldfish.
We have also had the goldfish paired with different pyramidion builds going up against different Duck teams including double galleon and galleon-junker. I wish I had the videos because we have had a lot of success with it.

I'm not saying this would work in every situation. But the goldfish is certainly viable, just a different challenge to use. Like I said, it is my opinion that you have to think differently to use it effectively.

[Omniraptor]

What we really need to do to make goldfish and squid viable is remove the preemptive drums and remove the compass auto-spot. Suddenly ambushing/stealth/general sneakiness becomes a lot more more appealing, while other playstyles are unaffected.

That's not to say I'm opposed to tilting the guns forward, the goldfish is an assault ship after all, not defensive/tanky like the junker or galleon, and the gun placement needs to reflect that. A single light gun does not a proper broadside make.

[-Mad Maverick-]

^^ this

[Dutch Vanya]

Finally a fresh idea, Omniraptor makes a very good point. Although i do like the feeling the drums/ music change adds, they work against the advantage those ships might have.

And what do you mean by compass auto-spotting? I never use that thing and only fly by sight and sound.