Author Topic: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>  (Read 19988 times)

Offline redria

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<Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« on: April 02, 2014, 04:11:51 pm »
Why I'm Here

Hello everyone. I want to look specifically at a potential league I have been working on (with help from several people that have given me suggestions along the way). The end goal of this is to create a premiere level event to either be run by a third party, or to be run as the official competitive scene by Muse. This already has the attention of Muse, so I want to have the community looking at it and making sure all kinks are ironed out. The extended document is at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/110iL4Enh6PNzVYrqpClcCiLz5sSt6rKQOg5B_BmnVzQ/edit?usp=sharing. This rule-set sets the structure of the event along with laying out the groundwork for handling a variety of situations. If you wish to comment, feel free. You should have full permissions to comment. If you wish to work with me on editing the document, contact me and I will get you access.

League Layout

Similar to American Football, this is a competitive league with a defined season, scheduled start times, time limits, and of course playoffs.

Signups close 1 week prior to the first weekend of seasonal play. On the Wednesday prior to the first day of competition, a schedule for the season will be released. The schedule will include start times, opponents, and maps for each team. Each team will play a single best of 1 match each week. The time limit for this match will be 30 minutes. Matches will begin every 40 minutes.

Every team will play a single match every week of the regular season unless a single bye week is needed due to an odd number of teams entering. Teams will be divided into divisions such that the number of divisions is minimized, and no division is larger than 8 teams. Teams will play every other team in their division once, along with teams from other divisions if needed to fill out their schedule.

At the end of a 7 week regular season, there will be 2 rounds of playoffs over 2 weeks: the Golden Playoffs, and the Silver Playoffs. The Golden Playoffs will take place during the second week of the post-season. Teams will advance to the Golden Playoffs if they are in the top 33% of their division (rounded up). The remaining teams are advanced to the Silver Playoffs, which will take place during the first week of the post season.

Playoffs operate on similar rules to the regular season, with best of 1 matches. However, ties will not be allowed, and the time limit is soft.
The end result of the season will be a Gold Champion and a Silver Champion, along with a Golden Runner-Up.

What I Want From You

Read through the document and give me feedback. I feel like I have a really strong groundwork here to build from, but I made a lot of executive calls in deciding several points.
1. If you see anything you don't like, drop a comment saying why (and maybe what you think would work better).
2. If you see something you think is really cool, leave a comment.
3. If you think of something that would be neat to add, scroll down to the additions section and leave a comment.
4. If you think something could be reworded/rearranged for more clarity, leave a comment. If you have cool name ideas, leave a comment.
5. If you have anything else that is not covered by 1-4, find somewhere and leave a comment. :D

Thank you for your time. :)

Offline Thomas

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2014, 12:29:17 am »
You really put a lot of effort into this, I think it looks great. =D

Offline Tanya Phenole

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2014, 01:28:46 am »
Quote
Golden Playoffs[f] - The top 33% of teams in each division, rounded up[g], is advanced to the Golden Playoffs.

I suggest to set a minimal amount of four teams in golden playoff . 4 teams are way better to rotate to make matches less predictable.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2014, 06:41:45 am »
Quote
Golden Playoffs[f] - The top 33% of teams in each division, rounded up[g], is advanced to the Golden Playoffs.

I suggest to set a minimal amount of four teams in golden playoff . 4 teams are way better to rotate to make matches less predictable.

Good point. Thank you. My hope would be that there are sufficient teams for that not to be a problem, but better safe than sorry. :)
-If fewer than 9 teams sign up, the top 4 teams will be advanced to the golden playoffs. If there are fewer than 4 teams remaining for the silver playoffs, the silver playoffs will not be held and the post-season will last only 1 week.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 09:13:13 am »
I like this. After sky league I will be stepping down as a constant competitive captain so I would love to work on the administrative side of this.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 10:25:11 am »
I like this. After sky league I will be stepping down as a constant competitive captain so I would love to work on the administrative side of this.
Each match will need a ref to check loadouts at match start and answer any questions anyone has about the rules. The ref will need to keep track of times with server, flex, and pause times playing an important role in handling connection issues.
I want each match to be streamed, so we will need channels to support the teams competing. I would imagine that each division would probably get a dedicated stream, so all divisions could play out simultaneously, with an offset of 10-20 minutes between streams so that viewers wouldn't watch a 5 minutes match and be left with nothing to watch for 35 minutes.
Pre-battle administration will revolve around making sure the schedule each week arranges matches to be interesting. Sort of like how the NFL flexes Sunday night football to get better games in prime time, administration might move a match to occur later in the lineup, or arrange matches so that several potential highlights don't run simultaneously. The most challenging part will be initial scheduling, and any re-writes needed if a team drops.

Whether this is run by Muse or someone else, I'm sure help will be needed. If things move forwards with Muse I will keep your name in discussion. If not then maybe I will look to you about picking this up. :)

Offline FluffyHetsche

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 02:41:03 pm »
I don't know if this was covered and I'm just stupid, but what happens if a team that doesn't have any back-ups (only 8 players in the team overall) and one of their players disconnects during a game and can't reconnect? Would the team automatically lose or would they be able to carry on with an AI? (worst case scenario; I don't think anybody would want to do that)

Same problem would occur if let's say the Steam servers are down, but the team does have substitutes. Players already in the game aren't affected by that, but nobody can connect to the game as long as Steam is not online.

I'm pretty impressed with this! A tournament like this can't have enough rules and guidelines and you put a lot of thought and work into this. ♥

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 03:01:08 pm »
Great work on this Redria.
Such a tournament could turn into the main event of guns.
Something i was looking for since the last season of cogs finished.

If you need any help ill happily do what i can.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 03:18:55 pm »
I don't know if this was covered and I'm just stupid, but what happens if a team that doesn't have any back-ups (only 8 players in the team overall) and one of their players disconnects during a game and can't reconnect? Would the team automatically lose or would they be able to carry on with an AI? (worst case scenario; I don't think anybody would want to do that)

Same problem would occur if let's say the Steam servers are down, but the team does have substitutes. Players already in the game aren't affected by that, but nobody can connect to the game as long as Steam is not online.

I'm pretty impressed with this! A tournament like this can't have enough rules and guidelines and you put a lot of thought and work into this. ♥

Ooohhh Steam servers. I hadn't thought of that...

Regarding a player disconnecting and not being able to reconnect - Each team gets 4 minutes of pause time that allows them time to reconnect players/get substitutes. Once their 4 minutes are up, the match timer would start back up and the battle would continue with or without a full team. I want to find a good balance between flexibility and rules that don't depend on gut feelings and sportsmanship. My current rule says nobody can join outside of pause time, so if the pause timer ran out, then a team would be stuck one person short. This encourages teams to have at least 1 or 2 backups ready to go. This should really be the case anyway, since real life problems due come up and nobody can guarantee attendance every week. This may be a ruling that should change to allow players to join with pre-determined loadouts.
Say if there are any open slots before a match starts, the captain may announce a specific loadout to both the referee and the opposing team. Mid-match a player could join late if they bring that loadout. If a player disconnects then a player can join at any time as long as they have the same loadout.
If a team only has 8 players, it is a risk they run. Unfortunately there is no real way to protect them from individual drops.

Regarding steam going down... My language would be too colorful for this forum.
I would probably count this towards server time. Right now I have 5 minutes allocated towards server issues where 3+ people disconnecting or slow-mo will give the game an official pause. There is a set of rules about what happens when server time runs out. If steam goes down, it is no longer a team/individual player issue, but a League issue, and something that a team should not be punished for. So the ref should be making calls based on the availability of steam as to whether down time is allocated from a team's pause time or from the server time of a game.

If that makes sense to anyone but me, then huzzah!

The biggest problem I foresee with all of the rules regarding connection problems is the timing. If the problem happens outside of a fight, all is well and good to pause. Mid-engagement, can you really pause? How does that get handled? If anyone has a suggestion on that, please let me know. It seems like such a gut call and I don't know how to translate it into straightforward rules.

===============================

TL;DR:
Teams get 4 minutes of emergency pause time for player drops. Players can replace AI outside of this if they bring a pre-determined loadout.
Steam problems are called by the attending referee and count towards a 5 minute pool of server time.
I don't know how to handle pauses mid-engagement. Ideas? Help?

Great work on this Redria.
Such a tournament could turn into the main event of guns.
Something i was looking for since the last season of cogs finished.

If you need any help ill happily do what i can.
Thanks. Help me riddle out a non-judgement-call rule on when to enact pauses. :P

Sorry to make such a long post, but my best idea right now is that pauses can only begin when there are no spots down. However, that puts the responsibility on the weakened team to break contact, and opens the door to sportsmanship having an impact on gameplay which I want to avoid. Opponent trying to run away because they lost their captain? Chase hard and get the kill before they shake your spot!
Alternatively, pauses only start when there are no spots, but kills don't count if a disconnect happens more than 5 seconds before the kill occurs. Ofc DM doesn't support this, but the kill limit could be lowered accordingly, basically awarding a free kill to the enemy team.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 03:41:46 pm »
Ah damn my memory ...
One thing i wanted to bring up. Keep in mind that sometimes some players get delayed connects at matchstart.
So you either have to pause till everyone is fully loaded in which would make it hard to control if noone really starts an action (preloading, movement (due to wind) etc) or just dont hard force those rules at matchstart.


Yeah mid engage DCs are hard to call.
You either have to make those calls by a referee and then count them towards the team with the dc or just state that there are no midengage pauses.
Second solution gives a disadvantage to the team with the dc. First rule is hard to enforce and can give a team that just got ambushed an advantage.
I would go with the second one cause you could easily abuse the other rule by dcing on purpose.
There is just no good solution. Even an ingame pause feature can give the team that got ambushed an advantage by letting them calm down and analyzing the situation.


But one thing i would think of ...
Especially for such a big tournament. Give the teams a break for one week or so.
Best way would be to split the games of each divison on different weekends. Maybe 2 divisions (based on division number) per week/weekend. That way everyone gets a pause and doesnt have to show up every week cause those weekly events where you always have to show up can make it really hard for teams/clans and even more for the smaller ones to be able to compete on a regular basis.

And one thing i would think of aswell ...
While its great to have people tied to a team and not have cross team substitutes every week or even more extreme every game it makes it really hard to find substitutes.
Maybe allow a listed substitute pool for every team where they can get a sub for one game. Limit that pool to a certain number (10-12 players or sth like that). Allow only one or two subs per team/boat. And dont allow them to sub for multiple teams on one week/weekend and then everyone has a chance even with a small ammount of players to play on a quite regular basis.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 03:47:17 pm by Alistair MacBain »

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2014, 04:09:58 pm »
Ah damn my memory ...
One thing i wanted to bring up. Keep in mind that sometimes some players get delayed connects at matchstart.
So you either have to pause till everyone is fully loaded in which would make it hard to control if noone really starts an action (preloading, movement (due to wind) etc) or just dont hard force those rules at matchstart.
Good point, but as far as I know the slow connects usually don't come up outside of CP maps where moving first gives you an advantage. My tendency would be to make the ruling that when the ref connects they announce "go" and start the timer. The "go" gives teams an indication of the match timer and no advantage should be had by that period of connection. If it became clear that someone wasn't connecting at all pause time could be enabled.

Quote
Yeah mid engage DCs are hard to call.
You either have to make those calls by a referee and then count them towards the team with the dc or just state that there are no midengage pauses.
Second solution gives a disadvantage to the team with the dc. First rule is hard to enforce and can give a team that just got ambushed an advantage.
I would go with the second one cause you could easily abuse the other rule by dcing on purpose.
There is just no good solution. Even an ingame pause feature can give the team that got ambushed an advantage by letting them calm down and analyzing the situation.
I think you mixed up first and second solution? Pauses only start when there are no spots down being the more viable solution, pushing the DC team to either carry on anyway, or to organize a retreat. This could be abused somewhat by the non-DC team, but seems like a more consistent rule with less actively intentional abuse potential.

Quote
But one thing i would think of ...
Especially for such a big tournament. Give the teams a break for one week or so.
Best way would be to split the games of each divison on different weekends. Maybe 2 divisions (based on division number) per week/weekend. That way everyone gets a pause and doesnt have to show up every week cause those weekly events where you always have to show up can make it really hard for teams/clans and even more for the smaller ones to be able to compete on a regular basis.
Hmm.. Move to an 8 week regular season, with a 3 week post-season? Everyone is guaranteed one bye week during the middle 4 weeks (weeks 3-6) of regular season play. The first week of the post-season is a bye week as well, with no matches taking place.
This takes the full season to 11 weeks, meaning we could probably safely run only 3 seasons in a year. 4 seasons would leave us with only ~3 weeks downtime between seasons probably not enough. 3 seasons gives us about 6 weeks downtime between seasons, which leaves open opportunities for other events. 2 seasons per year gives the most flexibility to other events, and would probably work well with this.
I want to minimize the length of the season so teams aren't committing too far into the future, and I want the regular season to have enough matches to be meaningful. This might be a good blend.

Quote
And one thing i would think of aswell ...
While its great to have people tied to a team and not have cross team substitutes every week or even more extreme every game it makes it really hard to find substitutes.
Maybe allow a listed substitute pool for every team where they can get a sub for one game. Limit that pool to a certain number (10-12 players or sth like that). Allow only one or two subs per team/boat. And dont allow them to sub for multiple teams on one week/weekend and then everyone has a chance even with a small ammount of players to play on a quite regular basis.
This seems similar to my 12 members to a team + 4 soft members. The 4 soft members constitute the backups.
Are you suggesting each team can create a pool of substitutes from which to draw, or that a grand pool of substitutes is created for all teams from which any team may request support?


Something interesting to see how these rules would play out small scale would be to get 6-8 teams to run a single weekend of matches (fun matches) on stream following every rule. This wouldn't catch everything we may have missed, but it might give a good indication of how it would be to play and watch under these rules. 6 teams would finish play in <=2 hours.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 04:21:50 pm »
Nope sadly those slow connects arent unique for CP.
I know one player in the gents that had those slow connects in alot of our matches.

The first and second were more targeted at my two examples ;).
And personally i just dont like tieing it onto spotting. Thats a game mechanic thats sometimes sacrificed for faster fire. And due to the strange behaviour of clouds which can lead to the inability to spot this can be kinda unfair. I understand what you intended to do with it. I just think spotting isnt consistent enough to base it upon this.

True it is hard to plan that far into future when you prolong it to much.
Both ways have their pros and cons.

Your softcap for members is kinda similiar but forces it totally onto players and makes it quite hard for newer teams to find a sub really fast.
It doesnt need to replace your soft membercap but imo this substitute pool would make it much easier for teams to find a sub. It also reduces the commitment for the players.

Offline redria

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 04:35:39 pm »
Nope sadly those slow connects arent unique for CP.
I know one player in the gents that had those slow connects in alot of our matches.
I more mean it doesn't matter much outside of CP. I know it happens, but I don't know of it negatively affecting anyone. I'm not sure that there is anything to do about it except say that the timer starts when the ref says go and you can move/do things as soon as your character will move in-game. This should not impact the outcome of matches.

Quote
And personally i just dont like tieing it onto spotting. Thats a game mechanic thats sometimes sacrificed for faster fire. And due to the strange behaviour of clouds which can lead to the inability to spot this can be kinda unfair. I understand what you intended to do with it. I just think spotting isnt consistent enough to base it upon this.
This is fair. I will have to think more on this. It isn't a pretty thing. Has a disconnect happened mid-engage in any events previously? Do you just play until an engagement ends?
I suggested tying it to spotting as an indicator of an engagement. That way you don't have a ref trying to judgement call whether an engagement is active or not. There must be a better solution.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 04:49:47 pm »
A slow connect can affect a game. Sometimes but not always.
Most obvious is a slow connect from a pilot.
Let me give you an example ... and yes it was a gents game cause i was in it so i remember those games the best :P.
Map: Northern Fjords
teams: mandarin, gents
teams spawned ( gents on bridge side), mandarin rushed towards the mountain on the side of the gents right at the start of the game
A slow connect in such a situation can cause alot. A pilot not moving instantly does the most. But even a crewmember can do a serious harm on such a situation. A slower shot or a bot taking over a manticore, shooting a volley and then starting a reload can also decide an engagement.
Yes those are special situations but they happen.
I kinda like the idea in theory to let the match start by refcall after teams called a full connect. It has its own problems but with the current spawn system there shouldnt be a serious influence on the outcome of the match. At least i cant think of any atm.


Yeah active engagement is hard to call.
Clear things first ...
A destroyed armor is obviously a open engagement. A dead balloon would be the same if you ask me.
A close position of minimum 2 emenies (dunno how to state close) would mean be active aswell if you ask me.
Its really hard to judge such a thing.

And yes those DCs happened. They happened alot. Some teams stated prior to the matchstart that they wont pause. Some teams paused after they were asked. But due to bots taking over its quite hard to judge those things.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: <Development Discussion for Official Competitive League>
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 09:47:26 pm »
Just a few thoughts:

I think giving every team a by week would help ease battle fatigue as well.

Also I am a strong advocate for more lenient substitution rules. I don't think I ever made it through a cogs season with as few as 4 substitutes.