Junker OP?

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Ya know instead of talking about nerfing the Junker...lets discuss buffing the other ships to counter. I've just about had it. People cry nerf...Muse nerfs...the game just gets more and more dull. I don't want this game to turn into flying turrets. If it gets that far, might as well market it to retirement homes because they are the only people that will find it fun anymore cause then it won't be GOIO, it'll be a big 3D version of Battleship which they'll love to play between Bingo sessions.

Lets do something about the Junker by giving the Pyra it's turn rate back, giving the squid it's mobility back, and giving the other ships whatever touch ups they need to help them compensate for a slow moving fast turn rate ship that has the best gun arcs in the game.

[Thomas]

I'm actually a little surprised the pyra shows up that high. Essentially it's covered in hull, making it the easiest ship to take out with piercing/explosive combo.

But back on the junker, it doesn't make that much balance sense for a ship to have that high of armor and mobility combined with a difficult to hit hull and a large area of cover for it's guns.


Toss in a buff hammer and things get more extreme. Since they're all % based, the higher the base stat, the bigger the boost. The junker has the second best armor, acceleration, turn speed, turn acceleration, and the best vertical speed.


Certain other ships do need a bit of a boost, but it's easier to deal with one ship at a time than try to tweak the remaining ships and risk things getting more out of balance.



Although, since we're on the topic of ship balancing, the goldfish probably needs the most love. It's not used in competitive play too much (although I think a lumberfish might work well against a junker maybe), and it's not used very effectively in newer matches either. It does see a fair amount of effectiveness in some moderately experienced pub matches, but that's about it.

[Sammy B. T.]

Considering the range between vertical speed is .12 M/s, the argument of great vertical speed seems irrelevant. The slowest speed is 99.47% that of the highest. Vertical acceleration tells the real story and the Junker has the third lowest acceleration. Also you know why the Junker has so much armor? Because it moves .02 m/s faster than the spire and has two thirds the perma hull. Sense it is a side engager it also can't as effectively charge straight meaning that not only does it have to move slowly at an enemy, it then has to turn.

I'm going to have to agree slighty with Gilder, ships like Goldfishes and Squids need some sort of love (pyra does not need turn rate but could use a bit more armor instead, I like it being a battering ram)

[RearAdmiralZill]

The speed a junker can turn at with buffed engines and/or claw is trolly at best, which is my largest issue with them. Given the gun placements it has, it shouldn't be able to flop broadsides that fast.

Now if that's a claw issue, a buff issue, or a junker turn rate issue is a matter of itself.

[Thomas]

Also you know why the Junker has so much armor? Because it moves .02 m/s faster than the spire and has two thirds the perma hull. Sense it is a side engager it also can't as effectively charge straight meaning that not only does it have to move slowly at an enemy, it then has to turn.

Armor plays a much bigger role than perma hull health. Armor can be buffed and repaired, while the hull HP cannot. Once the armor does break, most ships can be taken out in a single clip of explosive weapons. Ideally it would be a mortar or heavy flak, but with the right ammo it can also be the light flak.

Ships with low armor (essentially the squid and to a lesser extent the goldfish) rely on the low armor to rebuild it faster, and have more HP to soak up the damage that slips through. And you can see how well that works for them. (not very well)


Even though it moves marginally slower than the majority of ships (it is the second slowest top speed ship) it also has the second highest acceleration. The junker has minimal problems charging and chasing, as it does have a front gun and can chase off center to get the side guns going.



And that's just reference for those who forget just how slim the hull is (which I think is the main reason it doesn't need all that armor). I'd bring up the other ship pictures, but they're not all on the same scale.

[Sammy B. T.]

Squids and Goldies sucking has nothing to do with whether the Junker is too good. In competive play we see a lot of Junkers but we see an equal number of Galleons and even more pyras. Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

[RearAdmiralZill]

Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.

[Imagine]

A ship is only as good as the crew that flies it.

[Sammy B. T.]

Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.

If something is amazingly objectively over powered then you would expect the majority of the comp scene to be using it.

[Spud Nick]

This thread is discussing junkers in general. I think we can all agree that The Admiral Quackbar and the Dancing Feather are over powered.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.

If something is amazingly objectively over powered then you would expect the majority of the comp scene to be using it.

Take note of the Fjords tournament, and how many heavy flaks we got to second place with.

Its not the best of ways to tell if something needs changing by only looking at competitions. All this thread is really doing is getting opinions, and maybe it'll lead to changes in the dev app to see what's up.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Pyras got their ramming ability nerfed. Yeah I'm all for them being a ram boat if that is what people want but when they get nerfs to prevent ramming from being as effective then it needs some turn rate back. This was tested and it was fantastic. Just a half degree made the nerf much more bare able. It didn't make the pyra op again and it would help it with engaging Junkers again.

[RearAdmiralZill]

If anything, ramming a junker shouldn't be like ramming a squid where they just fly all over the place and into the gun arcs and out yours.

[The Djinn]

My only real issue with the junker is extreme coverage of the gun arcs (2+ guns on a target in most positions) combined with an incredible ability to turn to cover any blind spots that a target might try to take advantage of.

I think makes it unique amongst ships: all other ships have at least one angle of approach that renders the ship relatively incapable of retaliation and requires significant maneuvering on the part of the defending ship to regain solid gun arcs. The Junker, meanwhile, remains a fairly durable ship with a slim hull profile and a ton of turning maneuverability sufficient to constantly present strong gun angles against any opponent.

If I saw any Junker changes, I'd like to see something to increase the area of vulnerability of the ship. Whether this means spinning gun angles towards the fore of the ship to create a wider aft blindspot, reducing the turning acceleration to require more proactive movement rather than reactive movement, or even something as (admittedly) crazy and potentially balance-ruining as running some Dev App tests where the Junker has only a single gun on the starboard side just to see what happens.

In short, I think any change to the Junker should be directed at opening up its vulnerabilities and making it harder to keep 2+ guns on a target. Currently a well-played Junker is almost impossible to approach except from above and, with a height cap, it's hard to always be able to do that. I'd like to see more options for denying a Junker it's strongest gun angles.

'course, I'm still not convinced the ship needs a change...

[IvKir]

Okey... there is a biiiig weak spot on junker - it's balloon. Double or heavy carronade ship can kill junker. I met carronade\flame squid, that was a totally pain in mah behind, and without ally, i'll end up dead. And me and my crew not the weakest players.

But i think yeah - maybe it's a good idea to a decrease front gun ark, thus making trifecta nearly impossible.
About slim hull - it's not a big problem. Good gunner and heavy rounds on gatling will make a short work of armor and health of this ship.