Junker OP?

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Bring a mobula, spire or a junker and you don't need to sacrifice an explosive weapon for double piercing
it takes under 1 clip of gatling fire to strip junker's hull if you have double gatling. It can take 4 gatling clips to do the same on a single gatling gun.

[Urz]

[Captain Smollett]

Don't think Goldie is quite in Derp tier, but probably in low - mid tier depending on the level of players (I think you just wanted to make a Derp Tier).

[macmacnick]

...Goldie is devastating when in competitive with a HFlak and Lochnagar, along with a ship bringing the piercing.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Ya know seeing the numbers and how close the Junker is to Galleon armor level...it just makes me kinda wonder what the heck? If anything the Pyra should be closer to Galleon level. The Junker doesn't really have any visible armor, its just a sliver of hull.

I wouldn't call it OP but I certainly think the numbers should at least be reversed.

[Urz]

Don't think Goldie is quite in Derp tier, but probably in low - mid tier depending on the level of players (I think you just wanted to make a Derp Tier).

The goldfish has marginally more armour than the squid with a much larger hitbox and less maneuverability. It relies on a single heavy weapon in a metagame full of artemis and mercury field guns. Two of the four available heavy weapons are more or less unusable on the ship. It's a high risk vessel with basically no reward.

...Goldie is devastating when in competitive with a HFlak and Lochnagar, along with a ship bringing the piercing.

We have yet to see anything like that be remotely successful in competitive play.

[GreyTea]

That mobula pic got me laughing,

But i think this thread has unintentionally brought up a deep conversation rumbling lately on ships and strengths, myself urz spudnick and ramjam had a very long conversation the other day on all of the ships and shared the opinion the junker needs a Nerf to the turning speed because like urz excellent tier system diagram shows junker is indeed god tier atm,

It can counter almost every build and boasts an impressive arsenal and just versatile in every sense, it is protected from both sides, and insane turning speed with buffed engines and claw and a semi organised crew can devastate, pyra charges hmm though it sounds effective you can just turn out of the way because people will aim for the middle so just kero forward or back and turn out of the way i have seen the likes of puppyfur and sammy do it plenty of times so charging does not work, the mobula i would say is a good counter in a sniping battle however you can just move forward with a trifector going toe to toe then when close or look gat mortar side bye bye,

However at the highest level of play the junker falls short to a galleon with lumber flak and lumber hwatcha extreme long range it is weak but it has such a low profile good luck getting a flak shot at 1200m plus in competitive play before them artimus or merc start raining down on you, that being said the balloon is the spot to aim for on a junker i feel that is its weakness and of course other junkers are the counter and it comes down to pilot and crew skill. so a lumber or a carronade then sit above them it is just getting i that range without being disabled or taking so much damage the ally kills you before you finish one target,
 
I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and i hate the junker because i fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough.. but that is for another thread


TL:DR Agreed needs a nerf, lower armor and turning speed,

[macmacnick]

...It was in one sunday rumble.
the ships "Jesus take the wheel" (piercing pyramidion) and "disney films" (kill fish) managed to Defeat cake (SAC Vs CAKE) in canyons, during december (around the 20th-30th), and we were running galleons.

[Urz]

...It was in one sunday rumble.
the ships "Jesus take the wheel" (piercing pyramidion) and "disney films" (kill fish) managed to Defeat cake (SAC Vs CAKE) in canyons, during december (around the 20th-30th), and we were running galleons.

This is the game you are referring to (from January 26th Rumble):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoPQcKGhPI&list=PLXy5l_wXGi3g609ri39CpzesqqHSO4DDQ#t=718

Sacrilege switches to double hades Pyramidion and heavy flak Goldfish after decidedly winning the first game with double Pyramidion (Hades/Artemis and Hades/Banshee). That match was certainly won by a large discrepancy in strength of play, and despite their build choice in the second game rather than as a result of it.

[Piemanlives]

Also keep in mind SAC is a very well developed team, but that is another discussion entirely.

A junker is, quite personally, my favorite ship in the game. However many of the points raised against it are completely valid in one way or another. Thing is, the Junker is a brawler in every sense of the word sure it can be used at long range but the high turning speed is indicative of a brawler, why? Because of its ability to keep guns on target during a duel, at long range, lest it's sanding still, it has a tendency to over compensate sometimes. Going up against one in brawler is fairly suicidal, especially against a pilot who knows what they're doing and a crew who knows their stuff.

It can counter almost every build and boasts an impressive arsenal and just versatile in every sense, it is protected from both sides, and insane turning speed with buffed engines and claw and a semi organised crew can devastate...

The Junker is a very versatile ship, is has 5 light guns spread in a very optimal pattern, you can load a junker with just about any loadout you can think of (Excluding medium weapons). Can it counter every build? The possibility is there, load up cannonades and you'll be able to bring down another junker in a brawl, sit above a galleon laughing as it falls to earth, using superior mobility circle around a pyra.

I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and I hate the junker because I fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough..

It may be a jack-of-all trades but if your flying a squid you really need to know how to fly against a junker, that big balloon of its? If you play your cards right it will obscure most gun arcs besides a Hades and possibly a mortar, but if you are so close the Hades will do bare minimum, nothing at all, and the mortar isn't very good against armor either (at least last I checked). You shouldn't need to "Stay in the blind spot long enough" because that's not the purpose of the squid, it's a disabler, cause extreme havoc and get out, or if you can handle it, guerrilla them to death, you shouldn't be staying in the same place for very long. A squid is, much more maneuverable, has better turning speed and acceleration, has a higher speed then the Junker, and it's not built for prolonged engagements, at least ones where you're constantly under fire, if you duke and dive well enough you should be able to hold your own, if you know the weaknesses of its guns you should be able to formulate an approach that should get you in and out relatively unscathed, it may be easier said then done but as pilot these are things we all need to keep in mind, I've flown every ship in the game enough that I can counter them at the best of times, doesn't mean I'm good at it, not by a long shot, I'm terrible at this game, the point is, I believe you are over exaggerating the situation a bit.

(People who know me have probably figured I am a fan of wall of texts)

[Omniraptor]

A squid is pretty equal with a junker in terms of maneuverability. Squids are only semi-good against clumsy ships such as galleon, mobula or pyramidion, and then only if you can close in on them unseen. All the maneuverable ships (junker, goldfish, spire) will rip a squid apart.

[Coldcurse]

Coldcurse's list:

S-tier:
Pyramydion/Galleon

High Tier:
Junker/Goldfish

Lower but still lethal tier:
Squid/Pyra/Mobula


The list itself depends on what build the captains are choosing.
Each ship has it's own ways of fighting, calling the goldfish a derpship is not really nice since it's the best kind of assist ship to disable ships.

[Skrimskraw]

every match is based on a few things.

the map: certain maps favors certain ships.
the setup: the setup your team runs with, and how effective you are on using it. some setups doesnt work well together.
the mindgame: at some point you hit higher competitive play, and it is here that the mindgame comes into play. Knowing what your oppenent is going to do by observing his flying style, tactics and positioning. These things you need to base your counter around.

Lets say we are playing vs the ducks who are notorious known for their 2 junker setup.
what do we know about their build? junkers have a high armor rating, but will die very quickly from well played focus fire. The ducks use hades cannons and artemis to circle and disable their opponent, so getting caught between their ships are bad news.

They tend to fly at medium altitude, but they will change altitude when your team does. They also fly together at all times, and does not split up.

How do we counter this then?
in open maps a galleon with immense focus fire and very experienced gunners might be able to take down the junkers and tank some damage. - but this setup leaves your team very stationary and easy to go around.

No matter how to look at this the junker is in the top tier of ships at the moment, due to its strong endurance and damage capabilities.
However the junker has some severe weakspots.

if you break the junkers turning engines he is not going to move for some time, this means pulling one of his engineers from shooting to the back engine to rebuild it.

Stay mobile and keep using the terrain, junkers have a tendency to use a medium and a short range side. When you end up in the double medium range side of 2 junkers you will go down very quickly. Using the terrain to block shots or stay in hiding is very important.

timing the perfect engagement is what will define who takes the lead. If you rush straight on you are most likely going to die before you were able to get a kill.
The junkers using artemis have a disadvantage in that they shoot down, if you pop hydrogen on a goldfish or pyramidion you will be able to shorten the distance before they spot you or are able to counter your engagement.

Here is my favorite. junker pilots love to focus on three players using guns, this can also be the weakness as there are no engineers on the vital component. a quick focus fire + ram will deal a large portion of damage that might kill the junker outright.
- a thing I have seen vs junkers is that moonshine ram from a pyramidion to the junker balloon, instantly kills the junkers balloon and pushes him away from you actually exposing his engines to your guns.

a last thing about junkers. they are not agressive ships, sure you can play them as such, but they dont work well with rushing and front facing ships. Goldfish, pyramidion, mobula and spires all have guns pointing forward which means they dont need to turn to have their full potential.
Using a junker with any of the above mentioned ship can leave a big disadvantage to the team using it. Why? because when a goldfish or pyramidion especially needs to move forward, they are weak if their ally does not have strong front facing guns that can support them. this means that the junker in order to move forward has to stop using his trifecta ability. (perfect time to start an engagement)

feel free to disagree with me
But I hope this will help anyone in looking at a larger picture of ships and their "Overpowered´ness"2

[GreyTea]

I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and I hate the junker because I fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough..

"Stay in the blind spot long enough" because that's not the purpose of the squid, it's a disabler,

This is the issue it is forced into a disable role because you can not brawl in a squid against a junker with gat mortar like you can against mobula galleon spire goldfish

i honestly think most pyra vs squids that are both kill ships is a good 1vs1 ducking diviing claw hydrogen ect trying to get on the pyra's Right and in the hugh blind spot while they are trying to bring left or front guns to bare it is almost designed in mind to kill pyras with the right side guns and pyras right blind spot,

However the junker is on a diffrent level there is only one blind spot to approach from is the rear and claw buffed engines on a junker will never let you stay there for more than what 2-3 seconds before you are taking damage , so you have to go disabler which is why i made the squid change thread ^^.. granted i am not the best pilot but it seems the junker is a brick wall with only one way to win and that is like you said carronade drop carronade drop and overwhelm but how long does that take, why you are doing this you are in the open to the ally and Fire is so easy countered with heatsink chem and that means you are just a carronade so drougchute and that is basicly the squid fully countered.

[ramjamslam]

(People who know me have probably figured I am a fan of wall of texts)

I'm sorry, Skrimskraw has you outclassed this time xD