My thoughts on the Current Galleon and where it sits

[Captain Phil]

Been attempting to fly the galleon of late, and every match has ended in disaster. The ship is no longer what it used to be, an imposing ship that requires a lot of tactics and skill to approach and take down. Now, people see a galleon and go, "free kill." The Galleon is big and slow making it an easy target, the weapons are so far down below the balloon that you cannot do much vs. a Hellfish, and you are easily countered by someone going Mobula with the lousy merc/X2 arti build. And, even if the ship builds and map is in your favor, getting all 3 of your crew to shoot the guns the way they need to be shot is near impossible.

So, What are the problems that I see with the galleon.
1: The heavy guns. These are big, bulky, and very hard to keep in full repair. Sure the goldfish has the heavy gun, but the goldfish only needs that one heavy gun since it has the high mobility to compensate for the gun's weakness where the galleon cannot reposition as easily. Spire is kind of the same way where you can easily reposition by simply reversing (fish can do this too) and can have the 2nd engi on the lower deck help keep the gun repaired. The galleon is also heavily reliant on ALL of its guns where the fish only needs the one and the spire can get away with the Pilot taking the top gun for a bit while the ship reverses itself and engis can keep repairs. And for the last part of this section, the guns are hard to shoot on a galleon. On a goldfish or spire it is a lot easier to shoot at a target when you are moving forward or backwards rather than from a galleon's broadside where the guns are moving side to side for the gunner, making it very hard to make precise shots. Sure, you can 'hold still', but that just makes it easier for your guns to be taken out. There is also the factors of; Getting consistent shots, getting those important shots in when armor is down, properly aiming your gun to disable enemy guns trying to take your guns out, and all the while trying to keep the guns repaired and shooting. One person may be able to pull it off, but not all of your crew.

Questions regarding guns: Where are you guys in agreement and disagreement regarding the heavy guns of the galleon also being one of its major banes? As a gunner, do you find it easier to shoot a Fish's gun then a galleon's?


2. Ridiculously slow mobility in all four directions: The galleon is a slow ship but it is ridiculously slow to the point where if you lose the advantage for a moment (all it takes is one hwacha miss, had that happen several times) you lose the battle. Alongside with all 5 of the main guns to keep up, the galleon pilot will have to be burning engines almost constantly to keep up in a close range brawl, thus increasing the difficulty of up keeping the ship. This is not mentioning the galleon's slow response to altitude change. So many times where I have managed to gain the advantage on an enemy ship to have them just quickly rise up and get out of my gun's poor arcs. They can keep shooting me of course. And there are items to help, but you can't bring Claw, moonshine, hydrogen, and chute vent together. you will be missing out on one aspect and you will be punished for it.

Questions on mobility: What items do you bring with what guns as a pilot, and do you find yourself easily out positioned even with your mobility items? As an engineer, how difficult is it to keep all 4 guns functional, shooting, and keep track of the engines all at the same time?

3. The size and location of parts on the galleon: Galleon is the biggest ship with the biggest guns in the game, and all that means is that it is going to make it so much easier to shoot at you and disable you. All of the engines are out in the open and in the back for free pickings, the guns sit there saying, "Please shoot me," and your balloon is massive and far from the protection of your own carronades. Oh, and that hull, a nice big target for a hwacha to come in and ruin your day by breaking all of the hard-to-repair guns and engines.

Positive sides of the ship:
1. The guns: You have the biggest guns in the game and two on each side to match. If you manage to get good shots where and when they need to be, you will devastate other ships in a heartbeat.

2.Hull armor and health: The galleon is the only ship in the game that cannot be one clip killed very easily. But this mostly means that it will only take longer for you to die when you lose the advantage. This can also be taken as the galleon's only decent use is as a meat shield.

Questions on positive aspects: What other bonuses do you think the galleon has, and dose it and the ones I list have many downsides to go along with it?

Final thoughts and conclusion: All of this is my opinion on where the galleon sits in current meta,  and that is right next to the squid. The galleon is far too hard for 4 people to up keep, the guns are a pain to shoot, and the ship can easily be out maneuvered. There are simply too many down sides and variables when it comes to crew members for the galleon to be considered a good pick. This means that the only time you should fly a galleon is with your own clan mates who know how to operate the guns on a galleon, and know what to do on it. To me this is unfair since the galleon is the only ship that requires this much planning to even think about using with 99% success. A pyra you can easily say, "gunner on top right, one engi on lower deck and the other on balloon and left gun." Can't rub a pub crew on a galleon like that, I have tried to run a galleon with pubs all day one time, did not win a single match unless the teams where ridiculously stacked in my favor. (Ally still did most of the damage.) And sometimes even with a good crew, it still ends up as a disaster.

Question Recaps:
1: regarding guns: Where are you guys in agreement and disagreement regarding the heavy guns of the galleon also being one of its major banes? As a gunner, do you find it easier to shoot a Fish's gun then a galleon's?

2: on mobility: What items do you bring with what guns as a pilot, and do you find yourself easily out positioned even with your mobility items? As an engineer, how difficult is it to keep all 4 guns functional, shooting, and keep track of the engines all at the same time?

3:positive aspects: What other bonuses do you think the galleon has, and dose it and the ones I list have many downsides to go along with it?

4:Final question on Galleon: Where do you think the galleon sits in the Meta? Do you consider the galleon a difficult ship to Pilot/Crew? And, do you think the galleon needs some love (squid does too, but later on that one) and if so, what do you think can be changed to help the galleon become easier to use and/or not so easily beaten as it currently is.

And just in general, just give thoughts on what you think about the ship in general.

[Captain Phil]

So, to answer my own questions.
1: The heavy guns do seem to be one of the largest problems I come across when I am on a galleon. Even though I can disable enemy guns with the hwacha or carronade, it is still a lot easier for the enemy to fix a Gatling gun and start having it take our guns out then it is us to repair ours and take theirs out. When flying  goldfish I am able to move the nose of ship around, up, down, and make the enemy miss a few shots on the gun to help keep it up. I cannot do that while flying the galleon
For shooting, I personally find it much easier to shoot from a goldfish or spire then it is a galleon.

2: I Bring Chute vent/drogue chute depending on their balloon breakers, Claw, and moonshine. Main problem I come across with is people just rising up faster then I do out of my gun arcs and have my gunners yell at me to raise altitude on a half dead balloon. We go up about 1cm a second. And if I bring Hydrogen over Chute vent, the same thing is in reverse when I pop their balloon. As for turning and keeping gun arcs, I can do that perfectly fine with the moonshine/claw combo.

3:Named them up there ^

4: It is only a bit better then the squid in my opinion since to can duel ships and win a lot easier. For crewing I can crew it fine, but that is with year + of practice and knowing of what to do and where to be. Such as paying attention to both sides of the ship and maybe jumping between hwachas on both sides to keep two ships relatively disabled.
For Changes, we cannot directly change the heavy guns since that would effect the two other heavy gun ships. The main problem with the galleon is that it is balanced the way it should be, it just has everything going against it. My best bet would to be to introduce a buff tool that can give strong damage reduction to ship parts so the guns and engines cannot be damaged as much. Also, perhaps putting some guards around the lower engines to make them harder to get a direct hit on with any gun. That should help the lower deck engi keep up on repairs.

[Thomas]

The galleon has always been one of my favorite ships, especially in a close range engagement. However, it has a really hard time right now, especially as players get better at playing.

In the low skill level of play, it's extremely difficult for players to make use of. The gun locations on the sides are really hard to track and lead with for inexperienced players, and guns like the flak and lumberjack are difficult to aim with, especially on a moving ship (and newer players like to keep ships moving).

In the high level of play, it's baby easy to counter. The galleon is just one big target. The heavy guns have large hitboxes as well, and are more or less framed in the hull, making it easy to get them at any range. If you get a balloon popping weapon, the galleon can't really defend itself either. The balloon just extends so far above the ship that it's simple for other ships just to park next to it. Even with a skilled crew it's hard to use effectively in both close and long range. Low maneuverability, easily disabled, massive target.


As a brawling galleon, I generally work around the disabling by just ramming it into the target ship. This makes it harder for them to hit the side guns (since I'm now facing them)  and engines, and usually knocks them off arc. It gives my gunner/engineer time to rebuild a gun and fire once we turn again. It doesn't always work of course. You get a meta-pyra who knows to stay in front and just back away, or use the gatling to destroy your weapons when you turn to brawl and there's not much you can do but sit there and take it.

As a long range ship, you just need to have a crew that can outshoot anyone and hope they can damage/distract the opposing sniping team before they disable your guns.


I'm not sure if there's a way to make the ship better. I don't want to propose a change that requires changing the whole shape of the ship, as it's my favorite design (and it would take a huge effort). Possibly the easiest method would be to make it harder to disable heavy weapons (more health? faster rebuilds? Put more hull hit box around them? Reduce their hitbox size?) I think another player mentioned perhaps altering the balloon health of the different ships, and that might be a great way to go.
((Although that idea was shot down for reasons I'd argue against))

Just like the different hulls, ships have different balloon sizes with different capabilities. The galleon has one of the largest balloons, but it has the same HP like much smaller or more protected balloons like the pyra's. Giving it more health can make the ship as a whole tankier and give them a fighting chance to counter a balloon popper before they sink and slowly grind to death on the map floor, unable to fight back (most other ships can get arcs on someone popping their balloon because of the carronades small downward arc))

[Captain Phil]

The galleon is a heavy ship, so why not make it so it can drop like a rock even without the chute vent? Also, even when charging, people still have clear shots at your guns, so possibly having some protective plates on the front to help defend the guns.
Perhaps removing arming time for loch would go a long way for the galleon too. Since it is easy to just sit next to a long range galleon's guns and get away with it since the galleon cannot kite like the fish or spire.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

If Hydro/Chute was buffed a bit more, lot of the complaints would be gone. Yeah I've been in that situation with weak balloon. Under the old hydro, you could pop it and get it to raise despite the HP of the balloon. But now, you can't use it unless it is near 100% HP. If you try to, you just don't get a return on it. Whole problem with that is hydro being linked with the ship weight and giving diminishing returns. I don't mind if it is not as strong due to weight, but the diminishing returns really hurts it.

This is currently a major problem the game has thats been going over the course of a year. We've been constantly dumbing down ships. Making them slower and slower then spending the rest of the time buffing or nerfing ranged weapons because all everyone wants to do is sit back and snipe. No one ever stops and thinks, maybe if the ships weren't so blasted slow the teams wouldn't go around sniping all the time? Back when the ships were faster, there was sniper battles, but you had Galleons leading the charge with them. You didn't have light ships. Small ships had the speed and agility to deal with them. Then the dumbing down came, speed and agility lost, Galleons able to rain terror still so what is a pilot to do, turn to mercs or arts.

The heavy weapons should be an object of fear, I don't argue against that. They should be a deterrent and something pilots should be terrified of facing, but again, its been a game of nerfing the range play to go with nerfed ships. Now Galleons are just not as terrifying anymore unless they've got a good gunner. When that case happens, just sitting back with a sniper boat is the best option. Closing range is just too risky with boats that can't handle well.

[Richard LeMoon]

Being primarily a brawler Galleon pilot, I honestly feel confident going up against any other ship with a good crew that can instantly follow orders. It is a hard ship to fly, but comes with high rewards. You have to re-train your crews on what (or if) to fix when, and where to move in multiple situations. It is not a ship like most others where you park your crew on a gun/set of components and do well. Each crew member needs to be able to switch strategies from instant to instant, turning certain death into sudden victory (often followed by shouts of "DAMN YOU JEEVES!). On the other hand, one bad crew member will sink the ship.

Any buffing of tools, ship, or gun would have to be done very carefully.

[Milevan Faent]

I'll probably contribute to this conversation fully later, when I'm not so tired, but I'd like to point out (yet again) that they are MEDIUM guns, as the game has no Heavy guns despite the still remaining typo that Muse has not fixed.

[N-Sunderland]

I'll probably contribute to this conversation fully later, when I'm not so tired, but I'd like to point out (yet again) that they are MEDIUM guns, as the game has no Heavy guns despite the still remaining typo that Muse has not fixed.

No. They used to be Medium, but they were renamed Heavy. Large weapons used to be in the works, but they were scrapped. They would've all been about this big:



Enough of that though. Let's not derail this thread too much.

[Spud Nick]

There is only two ways to play the galleon. As a sniper platform dishing out a large amounts of damage from afar, or as an aggressive brawler ramming into your target and swinging around those broadsides. Both of witch require a good captain and a even better crew. A very hard ship for pug matches.

[Captain Phil]

So, decided to take the day to spectate galleons, and lo and behold, every game they where the weak link; even if they had a high level crew and their ally was running a troll build. This was especially the case when fire weapons was used against the galleon. Just so many parts to keep chemed on the lower deck and to keep a gun firing.  If you had a fire extinguisher you spent all your time running around and not shooting. Also, the reliability on making those shots was just to great of a need. Every time the hwacha missed, the galleon was doomed to die.

[Captain Phil]

There is only two ways to play the galleon. As a sniper platform dishing out a large amounts of damage from afar, or as an aggressive brawler ramming into your target and swinging around those broadsides. Both od witch require a good captain and a even better crew. A very hard ship for pug matches.

Problem with sniper galleon, good bet someone on the other team will just go mobula and shut you down. Have it happen to me all the time. And good luck getting all 3 guns to shoot accurately afar.

[Spud Nick]

The sniper galleon also requires his teammate to protect him. Something you don't get a lot of in pug matches.

[Spud Nick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqEqxAXW-84

Dam you sniper Mobula!

[Captain Phil]

As said, way to many things going against the galleon if you try to fly without your own stacked crew that you have practiced with a lot before hand.

[Omniraptor]

In pub matches, I've had good results against pyramidions builds with the old gatling/double hwacha port side. The two hwachas let you output a lot of disabling rockets, which serves to mitigate the hwacha's inconsistent damage ouput. The gatling obviously eats through armor and hwachas finish them off. This build works well against people who think they can outmaneuver a galleon, to which your hwachas reply "outmaneuver using what?" If anyone attempts to facehug you, you can facehug them right back, just more effectively.

As for sniping, the galleon can output more firepower at longer range than anything except a spire. The problem is, lumberjack is hard to shoot while artemis is still pretty easy. With low-skilled gunnery on both sides, the LJ galleon will lose to artemis/merc/whatever spam. With good gunnery, the LJ will literally gain the upper hand over the other long range weapons