Author Topic: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen  (Read 48362 times)

Offline Thomas

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2014, 02:00:28 pm »
Not negligible. Less severe. Not spammable. More frequent in use.



I know that the Khanian style of play is quite well supported, and changing that is difficult to consider for a lot of players. I suppose I'd just have to suggest to players to start flying squids (against equally skilled opponents). If you stay roughly on the same plane as your enemy, you're going to get curbstomped something fierce. Especially if they're skilled players. You need to change altitude to survive and get attacks in, but doing so is going to wreck your balloon.

Using hydrogen for the briefest of moments will deal between 320 and 360 balloon damage, chute will deal 280-320 damage (both of which are above the values listed in the tool tips). Your engineers can't keep up with that. Even 1 use will take over 10 seconds to fully repair at the best of times. If you're already taking damage elsewhere on the ship, and your enemy is decent, this maneuver bought you a few seconds to fix everything else before you try to actually escape. Even a ship not using hydro or chute can easily catch up to a ship using it if they are a skilled pilot. You won't get there as fast, but if they try pulling that stunt again they'll just about destroy their balloon. It's a bit of an overstatement to say that these are some of the most powerful tools.


Let's look at the ships and skills. For simplicity, we're going to say that the drag affects the top speed (Vertical speed) and the lift/descend force affects the vertical acceleration. So we'll say the -60% drag is a +60% top speed, and +200% is a +200% acceleration.

ShipVertical Speed (m/s)Vertical Acceleration (m/s2)Hydro/chute SpeedHydro AccelChute Accel
Mobula17.017.527.2233.7522.5
Squid17.00]4.0027.21812
Spire17.003.7527.216.8811.25
Goldfish16.993.2527.1814.639.75
Junker17.063.0027.313.59
Pyramidion16.972.7527.1512.388.25
Galleon17.012.2527.2210.136.75


Now how long does it take to reach the top speed using the tools? Assuming you're starting at 0
Mobula - 0.81 seconds Up, 1.21 seconds Down (No tools: 2.27)
Squid - 1.51 seconds Up, 2.27 Down No tools: 4.25
Spire - 1.61 seconds Up, 2.42 Down No tools: 4.53
Goldfish - 1.86 seconds Up, 2.79 Down No tools: 5.23
Junker - 2.02 seconds Up, 3.03 Down No tools: 5.69
Pyramidion - 2.19 seconds Up, 3.29 Down No tools: 6.17
Galleon - 2.69 seconds Up, 4.03 Down No tools: 7.56

So if it feels like your ships is taking at least 3 seconds to reach full velocity, it's because you're:
A- Starting with a negative velocity and taking more time to change directions
B- Using one of the slower vertical ships
C- Both A and B

With all the numbers above, you'll notice that some ships peak out faster, which means they don't necessarily need to use it for the full 3 seconds, as they can cover the same distance in less time. Forcing them to use it for the full period punishes the more agile ships more so than a non-agile ship trying the same maneuver.



Next up we have the balloon damage. Damaged components function at the % of health they have remaining. So an engine with 50% hp will have 50% output. A balloon at 70% hp will have 70% vertical acceleration. As it was mentioned in the OP, hydro and chute do about 6.25% and 5.41% of the balloon hp per second of use; and also these numbers are incorrect, so the actual damage is higher. Each second you use them (and you're forced to use at least 3 seconds) you're losing a hefty chunk of functionality, ultimately reducing the ability of the component. This is fine for the engine tools, as engineers can keep pace with the damage being done, but not true for the balloon damage.




Finally we'll consider the worst case scenario, these tools actually being changed. Clench up everyone.
Let's pretend they're changed as follows (Hydro: 60 dmg/s, effects last for 2 seconds after deactivation, +20% chance fire ignition)(Chute: 50 dmg/s, effects last 1 second after deactivation) ; all other effects remaining the same.

We're looking at 5% balloon hp for the hydro, and 4.17% for the chute per second; for a minimum of 180 dmg and 100 dmg to the balloon on each use. The engineers still can't keep up with the damage, but you're not losing as much functionality upon each use. It's more controllable, but not precise exact timing like you can pull off with kerosene/claw. Has the world ended? Did we break the game? Keep in mind that the tools are uni-directional. Using one makes it harder to go in the opposite direction. Bringing both of them would limit your ability to function on the horizontal.




Personally I like kerosene, moonshine, and phoenix claw. I bring them a lot, and use them even more. Right now I think they function pretty ok. Sure they're used a lot, and it gives certain ships definite advantages over other ships, but making them less useful would probably result in the forums imploding.

If people really want me to, I'll go ahead and discuss trigonometry as well, as that plays a big part in just how effective hydrogen/chute are in certain situations.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2014, 02:20:28 pm »
Maybe I don't understand the terms but why aren't you taking into account the climb force changes from the skills.


Also for those who want to nerf the phoenix claw, why do y'all want to nerf Pyramidions?

Offline Kestril

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2014, 02:39:35 pm »
Oooh. Okay. Now I get it! You can stop banging your head against the wall Thomas. Yeah, that actually sounds reasonable and would allow for some more options overall.

As a pilot who loves ambushing with the squid, I do sort of feel punished for choosing that light craft. It always seems like ambushes have to go perfectly or else I'm out a balloon and three engines. The small buff may make lighter craft a bit more viable.




Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2014, 09:23:23 am »
Buffing pilot tools buffs everything in regard to ships. You make the squid "better" but you also make everything else "better"too. The use of altitude is not the only way to avoid guns or their arcs, so I still don't get the thought of hydrogen and chute needing changes that would essentially make them overused.

And no, don't post any trig. I admittedly didn't read half your post because math in this game is fairly misleading.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 10:40:57 am by RearAdmiralZill »

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2014, 10:33:39 am »
This game is all about how you position your ship. How you use terrain, cloud cover, your ally as cover/bait. Buffing the balloon tools so you can doge attacks like Street Fighter would make positioning less important. You should not be able to hit one button and get out of a sticky situation that you put yourself in.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2014, 11:59:17 am »
This game is all about how you position your ship. How you use terrain, cloud cover, your ally as cover/bait. Buffing the balloon tools so you can doge attacks like Street Fighter would make positioning less important. You should not be able to hit one button and get out of a sticky situation that you put yourself in.

^ That sounds like the way awkm talks.  Does awkm secretly have an alt account?  I'm not advocating a return to pre 1.1 in any way but someone here must remember how much fun it was to dodge attacks like in Street Fighter with balloon tools.  Someone anyone? 

Offline Thomas

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2014, 12:15:53 pm »
I thought it would be best just to simplify it as much as possible. Lift force is directly related to the vertical acceleration of the ship, and that's an easier principal for many to understand. The vertical acceleration is equal to Lift Force/Ship Mass. Drag is a constant in the game, although I am unsure of it's exact value. It's basically air resistance/friction that acts against the ship. It sets the maximum velocity and fights acceleration a small amount. Essentially we're neglecting the small effect on acceleration and just applying it's effect to the maximum velocity.


http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1069/questions-on-thrust-drag-the-affects-of-speed-and-more/p1




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MSMyEejJTw
There's a video of hydro/chute vent being used on the squid, mobula, junker, and pyra. The purpose of that video, along with the math, is to give an idea of the difference between the ships especially when hydro/chute get involved. The big concern is that ships will be rocketing up and down and summon cthulu (or something?). But that just isn't the case. In the video, (or better yet, check for yourselves), you can see that the difference in acceleration makes a big impact. Slow vertical ships are still slow, while fast vertical ships are still fast.

We're not looking to have the power of the tool increased. We're just looking to have the damage toned down to reasonable levels, and a tad more control. Not all ships need 3 seconds. Keeping it at 3 seconds benefits the slower ships more than the faster ships. The small reductions proposed would still prevent ships from overusing the tool (there's still a lot of damage and some lag time). So again, we're not making the tool stronger in terms of force increase, drag reduction; ships would still behave the same when using the tool. They'd just be able to use it a tad longer (or a tad shorter) if they so choose.


Which is to say, even with the proposed changes, you would not be seeing ships bobbing up and down at an alarming rate and fracturing the time space continuum. If they can't do it now, they won't be doing it then.

As for the trig, basically the farther you are from the target, the less effect vertical motion has on escaping their arcs. If you're within 50 meters of an enemy, a hydro can certainly seem like a daring escape. But assuming your enemy isn't a ramming pyra, but keeping a decent range for their gat/mortar combo (we'll say 150 meters), that hydo generally isn't enough for you to escape rapidly unless you're a mobula or squid. Especially if they follow upwards. The main point being that it's a powerful tool in specific situations, and much less so in others.





And again, we're not looking for a boost in the power of the tool. The proposed change I tossed out was:
Hydro: 60 dmg/s, effects last for 2 seconds after deactivation, +20% chance fire ignition
Chute: 50 dmg/s, effects last 1 second after deactivation
all other effects remaining the same.


-Also, hydrogen and chute vent have never been adjusted (as far as I can tell). The only thing that changed in previous patches was ships stats. We're not looking to change ship stats. Having the above changes implemented does not allow for dancing pyra's and galleons anymore so than they are currently capable of.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2014, 01:47:54 pm »

-Also, hydrogen and chute vent have never been adjusted (as far as I can tell). The only thing that changed in previous patches was ships stats. We're not looking to change ship stats. Having the above changes implemented does not allow for dancing pyra's and galleons anymore so than they are currently capable of.

That's not quite true.  The same patch that adjusted ship mass also applied a nerf to hydro.  Chute vent was later nerfed 2 seperate times, 1 fairly recently.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2014, 02:20:19 pm »
And again, we're not looking for a boost in the power of the tool.
You're asking for the tools negative effects to be reduced while keeping the positive ones as is. That's the very definition of a buff.

Regarding your calculations: You've assumed GoIO to use a VERY simplistic physical model to calculate vertical accelerations: F = m*a where you've only considered the pilots input and neglected possible influences by height and the balloons health. Unless you can back up that assumption somehow, you'll have a hard time to convince me your results are even remotely correct.
To allow you to see where I'm coming from, here's a little discussion about a different equation of motion (which I could personally see muse to use for calculating the vertical accelerations):
F = k1*a + k2*v^2
with
F: the resulting ascending force
k1: a coefficient as a function of ships mass, the pilot input, balloon health and height
k2: a drag-koefficient as a function of height, attacked surface and a geometry factor
v: vertical velocity

I hope this illustrates how hard it is to do the math behind the scene as an outsider. You've neglected a lot of possibly relevant factors which can themselves be influenced by a lot of unknown parameters.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 02:39:06 pm by Wundsalz »

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2014, 05:58:10 pm »
I've just realized that those two unknown parameters of my equation could be easily solved for each ship with the date given in your table.

what's the source of that table, Thomas?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 06:09:02 pm by Wundsalz »

Offline Thomas

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2014, 11:37:32 pm »
I did some more digging, and it looks like they may or may not have been touched in 1.3.1 (most likely was, but not listed)
The suspected changes was a bit of a nerf/buff (Rising force up a little, drag decrease down a lot)


Chute was actually nerfed more in 1.3.2
(65 damage/s from 50 dmg/s)

Mass changes happened in 1.2

I can't find anything prior to that, but I'm only checking the release notes (these forums and the old ones).




For the calculations, I did do a lot of simplifications, although I probably did take it a little too simple. The biggest fudging of numbers was with the drag, mostly because I didn't want to deal with it.
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1069/questions-on-thrust-drag-the-affects-of-speed-and-more/p1

Based on that thread, drag is a constant and mostly affects the top speed with a much smaller effect to acceleration.

For the other assumptions, it was based upon a number of things.

-Height doesn't play a role in acceleration/velocity (only at the floor/ceiling of the map do they take effect)
-Pilot input is always 100% (You're either pushing the button or not. We assume you're holding the button for the duration.)
-Mass has already been factored into the acceleration
-Drag is a constant (independent for each axis)
-Initial velocity is 0
-Drag is negligible for acceleration
-Balloon HP is always 100%
-Gravity does not play a role

Essentially I just used drag as a correlation to the terminal velocity. It's related, but not the by the factor I used. For the balloon health, we just pretend it's at 100%, because while it does play a big role, there's a lot of possible variations. Are they fixing it immediately? What tool? Do they wait until it's low and use a mallet, or just spam the spanner? Does no one fix it at all? For gravity, we can see that it does not play a role while the balloon is active. While the balloon is alive, your ship will not move up or down unless you tell it to. When damaged, you have difficulty moving both up and down. If gravity played a role, it would be easier to descend rather than ascend; and they would likely have different values in the in game reports.

This time around we'll toss in simplified drag and balloon health. We'll be using the numbers listed on the tool tip, although these are known to be inaccurate.

So we'll go ahead and use F=k1*a+K2*v^2 to find the acceleration. Ultimately this will be a function of time.

We assume 100% ballon HP and no tools being used.

As far as I can tell, drag is also independent for each ship. To find the drag coefficient we assume the ship is travelling at terminal velocity (the acceleration is equal to the drag, leaving a net force of 0, and the ship travelling at a constant velocity).

0=a-D*v^2         (using D for drag coefficient. It's the same as k2 and will be a constant)

Rearrange to get: D=a/(v^2)

Goldfish: 0.011259
Junker: 0.010308
Squid: 0.013841
Pyra: 0.009549
Galleon: 0.007776
Spire: 0.012976
Mobula: 0.025921





Now that we have some solid numbers, we can apply the tool effects more accurately. Of course things get kind of ridiculous at this point, since your velocity is based upon the acceleration/drag relationship at a certain time, which is based upon your velocity. Which is why I tossed out drag in the first place. Luckily we're just looking for maximum velocity, so time can take a back seat for a bit.


We'll just do hydrogen
(a drag reduction will actually be an increase, as we've put a negative sign in front of Drag)


a=a0*4.5       (a0 is the normal acceleration)
D=D0*1.6       (D0 is the normal drag, 60%=1.6)
0=a-D*vt^2      (where vt is the maximum velocity)

A +350% is the (original value + 350% of the original). Or more simply (1*Original + 3.5*Original), or 4.5*Original
A +60% is the original value + 60% of the original, or 1.6*original


vt=sqrt(a/D)

or

vt=sqrt(2.8125*a0/D0)


ShipAccelerationVelocityDragHydro Velocity
Goldfish3.2516.990.01125928.493
Junker3.0017.060.01030828.61
Squid4.0017.000.01384128.51
Pyramidian2.7516.970.00954928.46
Galleon2.2517.010.00777628.527
Spire3.7517.000.01297628.51
Mobula7.517.010.02592128.527

Which shows the velocities originally estimated were off by about 5%. I'd say that's fairly accurate all considering.



The most complex question is how long does it take to reach that maximum velocity? Since velocity is a function of the forces over time, and the forces are a function of the velocity. Essentially we'll do it in increments of 0.01 seconds. We'll factor in balloon damage, which will start at 0 and then each 1 second mark after that.

We start with

Vf=V0+a*t

and get

Vf=V0+(a*HP-D*V0^2)*t

Vf is the velocity at that time, V0 is the velocity of the last increment. We'll be using the previous increment to calculate the current increment for simplicity when it comes to drag. It won't be exact, but it will extremely close. The acceleration (a) is with the hydrogen active. We're starting a vertical velocity of 0.

ShipActual Peak Velocity (m/s)Time to Reach (s)Distance Covered in 3 seconds (m)
Goldfish22.723.9942.59
Junker22.463.9940.67
Squid23.482.9947.91
Pyramidion21.933.9938.19
Galleon20.924.9933.04
Spire23.153.9946.3
Mobula24.902.9960.91

These numbers are noticeably different than those originally posted which assumed ideal conditions. This situation is just about worst case scenario (no one fixing the balloon). This rapidly slows down the max acceleration which in turn reduces the top velocity leading to a smaller area covered. You can see the balloon damage playing a fairly large factor, as the max velocity often happens right before the next tick of damage, where the velocity starts decreasing.

When it comes to distance covered, the mobula is obviously king, followed by the squid and spire. Near the bottom is the galleon and pyra. To give an idea of how much distance that really is, we'll turn to our trig.

We'll use the gat/mortar as our standard

Gatling - Range 450m, Up angle 25 degrees, Down angle 50 degrees
Mortar - Range 400m, Up angle 40 degrees, Down angle 40 degrees (additional shell drop 7m/s2)


At a close range of 50 meters: the gat can hit targets ~21 meters above level, while the mortar can hit targets ~39 meters above level.
At 100 meters: the gat can hit targets ~47 meters above level while the mortar can hit targets ~ 78 meters above level

So you can start to see the pattern where the farther you are, the higher up you can shoot. For the dodges players like to bring up when talking about hydrogen, those generally happen at extremely close ranges while you're already in an upward motion. Basically the best case scenario. Most other situations will result  in only dodging a little damage from the sudden change before the gunners and enemy pilot adjust. The balloon damage reduces maneuverability quite drastically (especially when you remember that the damage is actually higher than listed).


((Numbers were taken from the in game reports))

Offline The Sky Wolf

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2014, 09:19:29 pm »
There ought to be a mug of coffee as a pilot item; just pour hot coffee into the engine to make the ship drastically fluctuate in vertical movement causing the ship to go up and down randomly, as well as double your speed.

Get your ship hopped up on caffeine when it's time to dodge hwachas.


----Edit----

It ought to be a nonstop effect that lasts 7 seconds then kills your engines completely.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 09:22:38 pm by Grey-Wolf Jack »

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2014, 09:22:36 pm »
There ought to be a mug of coffee as a pilot item; just pour hot coffee into the engine to make the ship drastically fluctuate in vertical movement causing the ship to go up and down randomly, as well as double your speed.

Get your ship hopped up on caffeine when it's time to dodge hwachas.

You have a never-ending amount of ridiculous ideas eh jack?

Offline The Sky Wolf

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2014, 09:23:37 pm »
Never ever. I'm a MAD scientist at heart.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2014, 10:28:22 am »
I'm in favor of reducing the damage from hydro and vents.