Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen

[RearAdmiralZill]

A light touch is achieved through normal movement.

[Thomas]

If I'm burning kerosene and I might clip some terrain if I don't slow down, it's nice to use hydrogen to pop up over it a smidgeon. But then you're forced to continue rising and have a difficult time going back down.

That's the kind of light touch I'm talking about. Just a tap to dip under a hwacha barrage and take it in the balloon. A small puff of hydrogen to clear a low hill that you don't want to slow down for to clear, a drop of chute vent to duck under you ally instead of bumping them. Small moderate changes that don't cost you 1/3 of the balloon and keep active well after you stopped using it.

The equivalent of using kero/shine for a sudden hard stop before you smack a wall, or a burst of speed to dodge a flak. It should still damage the balloon to a point you can't keep it running all the time, but you should be able to use it more often than it can be used now.

[Wundsalz]

I can't see how it would break the balance between ships at all. All we're looking for is less damage/more control. Not for an increase in power. Even now it's not as powerful as some people think, especially at the higher levels of play. They would function exactly as they do now in terms of drag and acceleration changes. Making them less devastating to use will not break the game.

Hydrogen is one of the most powerful steering tools already, buffing it would certainly effect the game balance negatively. Regarding your observation of a correlation between player level and hydrogen usage, my personal experience suggests quite the opposite. I refer to hydro as a last resort option to get out of tight situations or to get quicker (back) into action. Hence my enemy needs to challenge me a bit in the first place to make me use hydro. The more experienced the enemy captains are the harder it is to get into a superior position, as they keep closer attention to what you do and know better how to react to your actions or when to take the initiative for a dirty steering trick themselves. As a result I'm forced to use hydro more often when fighting experienced pilots.

That's the kind of light touch I'm talking about. Just a tap to dip under a hwacha barrage and take it in the balloon. A small puff of hydrogen to clear a low hill that you don't want to slow down for to clear, a drop of chute vent to duck under you ally instead of bumping them. Small moderate changes that don't cost you 1/3 of the balloon and keep active well after you stopped using it. [...]a hard stop before you smack a wall, or a burst of speed to dodge a flak.

Any of these maneuvers can be worth way more than 1/3 of a balloons life in many situations and if they are not, well, then it's probably best to stick to regular raising and sinking speed.

As for the minimum duration, I agree with Zill. In any circumstance where I decide to use hydro, I actually (think to) need it for a duration of at least 3 seconds. The altitude adjustment tools are currently designed for drastic and sudden movement alterations and I believe that's a good thing.

In the end it's probably a matter of taste. I really like these tools like hydro and moonshine, which come at a relatively great cost and require precise timing, but grant a severe boost in the times of need. At the same time I'm not a big fan of how tools like kerosene or the claw work - which you can basically throw in and forget about to fly a bit better for longer durations.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well no offence to you Thomas, but our back and forth isnt going to go anywhere, because I can accomplish dodges like :

dip under a hwacha barrage and take it in the balloon.

with normal movement. The use you are trying to get is exactly what I think these tools shouldn't be doing, and what normal movement accomplishes within the balance of the ships themselves.

[Thomas]

Except against equally skilled opponents. Be aware that ships move up and down dramatically slower than forwards/backwards. If you wait until the last second, you're still getting a face full of hwacha. If you predict when he's going to shoot and move ahead of time, you might be able to avoid most of them. If you get it wrong and move too soon, they'll lead the shot and you get another face full. Using one of the tools just about guarantees a miss (assuming you're close enough). Using kerosene or moonshine can have the same effect, and I often prefer kero or better yet, moonshine, for such situations.


There seems to be a lot of personal taste involved. If you feel you can dodge shots without using a tool, I encourage you to do so and openly applaud; hazzah unto you and all that jazz. Some players might not want to take that risk against skilled enemy teams. Some players might feel the desire for small bursts of up/down without severely damaging the balloon. Some players may want to use it for less than 3 seconds, or may want to choose exactly how many seconds it's active. Maybe they know the enemy is high above them, so they pop hydrogen for two seconds, almost run into the enemy who's dropping down and need to wait 3 seconds before they can chase them (with their balloon in a very sad state at this point). There's a lot of personal taste. And having it limited in the way it is reduces it's usefulness in a lot of other situations.


As for it being the most powerful, I would heartily disagree. That award I would give to the phoenix claw. Nothing keeps enemies in your sights better. If you could choose only -one- tool, this would be it. For it's usefulness in dodging, I can't argue. It's great for that; but mostly at close range. You go mid to long and you're going to have a hard time keeping out of arc. It's basic trigonometry. You can certainly use a little boost for dodging some snipes, but the damage it does and the time it lasts only lets you get away with one or two dodges at most (assuming the gunners don't catch on very fast); and only on the faster vertical ships. Dry dodging a shot with helium on a galleon and it's just not going to happen.


I can compare it to other tools, point out issues and common complaints, use dreaded math, and even come up with alternative solutions. But the only reasons against the proposed balance seem to be:

-I don't want it changed, it's fine as it is
-You're not using it right
-But it's -really- good for dodging/escaping
-I can do that without tools
-I don't want to see it used more
-I have to use it that long anyways to see an effect


What's wrong with wanting it to be used in different situations? Damage aside, why does it need to be left on so long? What's wrong with wanting more control over it's use? Why Khan?

[Wundsalz]

The only reasons against the proposed balance seem to be:

-I don't want it changed, it's fine as it is
-You're not using it right
-But it's -really- good for dodging/escaping
-I can do that without tools
-I don't want to see it used more
-I have to use it that long anyways to see an effect

And some fine points have been made there.

What's wrong with wanting it to be used in different situations? Damage aside, why does it need to be left on so long? What's wrong with wanting more control over it's use? Why Khan?

It needs to be left on so long to restrict its usage. Currently you have to make a clear call to either use it and deal with the concequences or rather stick to conventional altitude adjustments. I like this behavior and certainly prefer it over forgiving/encouraging indeceisive, perfectly comtrollable quick altitude changes.

[Thomas]

But perfectly controllable rotations and forward/backward backward boosts with minimal negative effects are totally acceptable? Something got a little skewed in the risk/reward area of pilot tools.

[Captain Smollett]

Well after reading this thread I have come to one firm conclusion:

Pheonix Claw is op as hell.  For the last six months (with the exception of the brief super op kerosene phase) I've used Pheonix Claw on every single captains loadout on every ship I've flown.

It gives way too much benefit for its drawbacks.  Damage to engines should definitely be increased.



As for the vertical tool debate, I personally wouldn't mind seeing some slight changes.  Notably, it would be nice to see chute vents duration lowered by 1 second and the damage done during hydrogen reduced around 10-20%.

I (like many of the vets on the forums) played during the era of constant vertical tool usage spam and I recall it being quite fun trying to guess which way your opponent would move and trying to counter it.  I'm not saying we should go back to that era, since the game is so different now; but I do think we've moved too far in the opposite direction and a little more game play on the vertical plain wouldn't be a bad thing.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Pheonix Claw is op as hell.

And this is why I don't care for comparing tools in a blanket like it has been in previous posts. "Well I can spam claw. Why not make it so I can with hydrogen?" I'd be much more interested claw changes than hydro/chute changes, but that's for another thread.

Wundsalz sums up my thoughts pretty nicely.

It needs to be left on so long to restrict its usage. Currently you have to make a clear call to either use it and deal with the concequences or rather stick to conventional altitude adjustments. I like this behavior and certainly prefer it over forgiving/encouraging indeceisive, perfectly comtrollable quick altitude changes.

[Thomas]

*headwall*

I know I mentioned it before, but the goal was to get it used more often, not spammed. To use it more often, but not used constantly. More than it's used now, but not able to flick it on and off the entire match. Right now the use of hydro and chute vent is extremely, extremely uncommon. Absurdly uncommon. You might use it once or twice in a match, you might use it not at all. I tend to carry it on most of my builds, but it hardly sees any use on a good portion of them.

Using it constantly would be silly, and that's not what we're going for. But right now it's used too harsh to use for anything other than very specific situations. Why do I keep comparing it to other tools? Because they're not restricted nearly as harshly. All other items can be used and your engineers can keep up with the repairs better. They're not even in the same ballpark when it comes to hydro and chute vent. The only other tools that persist upon activation are bumpers and drogue chute, and those only reduce engine performance without damaging the ship.


And again "not spammed, just capable of being used -slightly- more frequently without punishing the ship as severely". Not spammed.

[Imagine]

*headwall*

I know I mentioned it before, but the goal was to get it used more often, not spammed. To use it more often, but not used constantly. More than it's used now, but not able to flick it on and off the entire match. Right now the use of hydro and chute vent is extremely, extremely uncommon. Absurdly uncommon. You might use it once or twice in a match, you might use it not at all. I tend to carry it on most of my builds, but it hardly sees any use on a good portion of them.

I don't actually see how this is a problem. You take hydro/chute for those situational possibilities, and if they don't happen to come up in a match that's why you're able to carry three tools.

I mean, if you really want to use them more, then figure out how to best optimize them instead of changing values around which would make the drawbacks of using one negligible.

[Captain Smollett]

Oh Thomas, you should really stop doing that to the wall over there, think the building is going to collapse.

...

I think Thomas is advocating slightly less negative effects to the balloons so that the strategic area where using the tools increased, not to the point where they are spammed, but to the point where the decision to use them isn't exclusively for extreme situations.

[Crafeksterty]

Smollett pretty much disected and translated it to the brim.


No one really chooses chute vent or hydrogen because the drawbacks scares them alot. But i still stand by that it is Claw and maybe some other tools that need adjusting first. Fix what is being abused, change what is being underutilised later.

Because when you fix what is being abused, perhaps then will you see what is underutilised be more utilised.

[Kestril]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I use the chute vent and hydrogen regularly to re-position myself in a gunfight. Over the course of a match, if the fighting is particularly demanding, I'll use them about six-to-eight times. However, normally it's just three or four, which is about as many times as I emergency moonshine or kerosene.


Sure, it's not as often as the other tools, but I think that's an indicator that the other tools need to be looked at and made to have more of a drawback.

[Wundsalz]

*headwall*

I know I mentioned it before, but the goal was to get it used more often, not spammed. To use it more often, but not used constantly. More than it's used now, but not able to flick it on and off the entire match. Right now the use of hydro and chute vent is extremely, extremely uncommon. Absurdly uncommon. You might use it once or twice in a match, you might use it not at all. I tend to carry it on most of my builds, but it hardly sees any use on a good portion of them.

Keep smashing! As mentioned before, some people, like me, disagree with your very goal.
Right now the use of hydro is uncommon (no need for extremes here). That's how I personally like it, for reasons elaborated above. I also don't see the need for buffing it in any form either, because despite activating it rarely in matches, those times when I actually use it, the benefit gained is great enough to make hydro one of my most favorite steering tool picks nevertheless. I also doubt that I'm alone with this view, as hydro is a very common steering tool choice among experienced pilots.